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A Goodly Dyalogue betwene Knowledge and Symplicitie. | |
IMPRINTED at London, by Anthony_Scoloker And Willyam_Seres. Dwellyng wythout Aldersgate. | |
Cum Gratia et priuilegio ad Imprimendum solum. | |
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Knoledge
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GOd saue you my frende simplicitie | |
I am glad of your good welfare | |
Ye are ryght welcome vnto the Cytie | |
For here ye are a straunger very rare | |
5 | I knowe the cause of your hyther repare |
It draweth nowe towarde the terme | |
Ye haue some matters for to declare | |
And what they be fayne wolde I learne. Symplicitie is a straunger in a cytie. | |
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Simplicite
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I thanke you Knowledge of your good-wyll | |
10 | And of your kyndnes without desert / |
But I cam hether for no suche skyll / | |
As ye haue vttered vppon your parte | |
But thys I thought wyth all myne harte | |
When I came hether vnto the terme | |
15 | Wolde God I had suffred at home great smarte |
Your facyons be so straunge to learne. Simplicite is sory that euer he cam in that cite, it is so full of noughtynes. | |
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Knoledge
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I praye you syr what is your grefe | |
Hath any man here you offended? | |
Shewe it shortly in wordes brefe | |
20 | And if I cane I wyll see it amended |
Your cause by me shall be defended | |
I wyllbe with you all this terme | |
My counsell towardes you shalbe bended | |
Your symplenes to teache and learne. Knoledge desyreth to knowe his grefe / and promyseth to helpe hym. | |
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Simplicite
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25 | Mary Syr offended I am in-dede |
And that in conscience ryght greuously | |
I praye God it shortlye be remedyed | |
That London sinke not moch maruell I, | |
For here is nought els but heresy | |
30 | Blasphemy and slaunder all out of frame |
That one man affirmeth an-other doth deny | |
Against the honour of Gods holy name. Simplicite thynketh that London will sinke for synne | |
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Knoledge
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Ah Syr I knowe the cause well ynough then | |
Of your great grefe in your conscience | |
35 | And I am ryght glad, for aboue all men |
I haue much desyred to haue your presence | |
Content you, and shortly ye shal haue intelligence | |
Thogh as yet for a time, somthing be out of frame | |
At length amongest vs shall be no difference | |
40 | Concerning the honour of Gods holy name. |
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Symplicitie.
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Frend Knowledge, that is a thyng impossible | |
That euer in one we shulde agree | |
So longe as we haue thys beble bible beble bible: a play on 'Bible' /'bibble-babble'? | |
Nay Nay Knowledge, that will not bee | |
45 | Do ye not heare and dailye see |
Howe men olde custome despyse and blame? | |
Whych thinge is greatly as thinketh me | |
Against the honor of Gods holy name. The Byble is cause of contrauersy. Olde custome is blamed. | |
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[Knol]edg
Knoledg] edg 1548
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Though olde custome hath vs longe ledde | |
50 | Agaynst Gods Gospell manyfestlye |
Is it not mete that it shulde be for_bedde | |
And also despysed vtterly? | |
Yf truth and olde custome dysagree | |
Shall not trueth olde custome dispise and blame | |
55 | And make hym subiecte to Gods veritie |
Yis, that is the honour of Gods holy name If olde custome be against the gospell it must geue place. | |
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simplicitie.
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Wyll ye (o knowledge) be of that minde? | |
Wyll ye be of that sort and gyse? | |
Wyll ye beginne newe wayes to fynde | |
60 | And olde custome cleane to despyse? |
Howe saye ye, were not our fathers wyse? | |
[Were] they not lerned? ye be to blame Were] Where 1548 | |
Let theyr example your mynde suffyse | |
Concernyng the honour of Gods holy name The custome of our forfathers is to be obserued, | |
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Knoledg
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65 | Unto our fathers God be mercifull |
They lyued in darkenes and we in lyght | |
All they were vnder a cloude moost wonderfull | |
Of the trueth, they had no parfect syght | |
But I saye, through Gods power and myght | |
70 | That cloude is cleared and set in ryght frame |
And all fained fantasies it shall put to flyght | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name Our fathers as paul teacheth were vnder a cloude, and sawe not the truthe, | |
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simplicitie.
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Wyll ye gyue me leaue to aske you a question | |
And with my boldnes not to be angrye | |
75 | I wolde be sory in any condicion / |
For to offende you, ye maye beleue me | |
And I desyre you euen hartelye | |
Shewe vnto me your opinion agayne | |
For we two I thynke shall not agre | |
80 | Concernyng the honour of gods holy name. The ciuilitie of simplicitie. |
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Knoledg
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Aske what ye wyll, and by Gods grace | |
As well as my wyttes shall serue me | |
I shall make answere in lytle space | |
As I haue lerned in gods veritie | |
85 | Be not afrayd, but speake at lybertie |
What-so-euer ye saye, none shall ye blame | |
For surely I trust your minde to satysfye | |
Concernyng the honour of Gods holy name the gentell answer of Knoledg | |
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simplicitie.
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Howe saye you (I pray the) to the holy masse | |
90 | That long hath bene vsed of antiquitie |
An[d] for many other thynges I let passe) And] An 1548 | |
As of masse of requiem and scala_cely of masse] of masse of masse 1548 | |
That delyuered our frendes soules from purgatory | |
Wyth many mo masses then I can name | |
95 | Of the .v. woundes, and of corpus_Christi |
To the honour and praise of Gods holy name The first question is of masses | |
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Knoledge
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Such masses / I say, are but Idolatrye | |
Which the Romysh Antichryst dyd inuent | |
To blynd our eyes wyth fayned ypocrysy | |
100 | And all to get money was hys intent |
What greater blasphemye was euer ment? | |
If masses shal saue vs, Christs death is in vayn | |
That suffred for vs hys flesh to be torment | |
Honour therfore no masse, but Gods holy name that all masses satisfactory are Idolatrye of the bisshop of Romes inuenting. | |
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Simplicite
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105 | How say ye then vnto the Sacrament |
Which all ye go about to denye | |
In the hoost, to be bodely present | |
Fyrst as he was borne of mary | |
And vppon the crosse as he dyd dye | |
110 | If ye speake agaynst thys, ye are to blame |
Thys our fathers beleued, and so do I | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. Whether Chrystes body be really present in the sacrament. | |
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Knoledge
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The sacrament is an holy thyng | |
But the vse therof was farre out of frame | |
115 | And that selfe body on the crosse hangyng |
And borne of mary that blessed dame | |
In hys corporall presens I say playne | |
Is not there present, surely I thynke the same | |
Who teacheth contrary, his doct[r]yne is vayne doctryne] doctyne 1548 | |
120 | And great dyshonour to Gods holy name. that Chryste is not bodely present in the sacrament. |
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simplicitie
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Ah Iesus mercy what do I here? | |
Is not he present in the sacrament? | |
How say you? Is not God present alwhere? | |
Wyll ye deny the new Testament? | |
125 | And if he be alwhere, I say verament |
He is in the sacrament I abyde by the same | |
Your deuelysh doctryne the deuell dyd inuent | |
To the great dishonour of Gods holy name. God is present alwhere and therfore his body is in the sacrament | |
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Knoledge
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Yis syr God is present in very dede | |
130 | As well all-where, as in the Sacrament |
But that vnderstand in hys Godhead | |
And for example learne thys presydent | |
The soule and the body be thynges different | |
But the body destroyed / the soule doth yet remaine | |
135 | And ye se not the soule, nether yet in the sacrament |
Ye se Gods body, but blaspheme hys name. that God is present all-where and is not seen, as the soule of man is inuis[i]bleinuisible] inuisuble 1548 and incorruptibleinuisible] inuisuble 1548 | |
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Simplicite
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Mary syr that is abominable heresy | |
Is thys your new le[ar]nyng and doctryne? learnyng] leranyng 1548 | |
What thyng can be sayd that is more blasphemy | |
140 | Ye shall neuer persuade me brother myne |
Doth not the priest from tyme to tyme | |
Lift vp Gods body, and shew vs the same? | |
In fourme of bread, yea, we se it wyth oure eyen | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. That the prest lifts vp Gods body in the sacrament | |
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Knoledg
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145 | Ye are deceaued poore symplicitie |
For Chryst being offred ones fro all | |
Shall neuer be offred agayne, beleue me. | |
Our masses therfore, are most Idolatry of all | |
Hauyng no grounde in scrypture at all | |
150 | If ye say, ye se Chryst lyft vp in the same |
You commyt most shamefull ydolatry wythall | |
To the great dyshonour of Gods holy name. Christ offred ones can not be offred againe, masse is ydolatrie and hath no ground in scriptur. | |
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simplicitie.
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Our curates command vs in payn of dampnacion | |
To beleue that Chrystes blessed bloude and body | |
155 | In the sacrament is present, of the same facyon |
As he suffred / dyed, and was borne of mary | |
And who-soeuer doth say the contrary | |
To the bysshops, they do accuse the same | |
As one commyttyng most shamefull heresy | |
160 | To the great dyshonour of Gods holy name Curates commaunde to beleue that Gods body is present in the sacrament. |
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Knoledg
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Your carles Curats whome custume hath blynded custume] cunstume 1548 | |
Do not well in that thyng knowe what they saye | |
But loke in the Gospell and ye shall fynde it | |
The selfe-same Iesus borne of a maye | |
165 | That was Crucified, dyed, and rose the iij daye |
On hys fathers ryght hand now sitteth playne | |
Hys body is only there present I saye | |
Who sayth contrarye, doth blaspheme hys name Curates are blind Christ is on the righte hand of the father | |
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Simplicite
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Howe saye you to our fasting-dayes? | |
170 | Are they not moost shamefully abused? |
And what thinke you of our holydayes | |
Whych are not mete to be refused | |
Both palmes and asshes are cleane confused | |
And offeryng of Candels / organe wyth them | |
175 | Are not all these styll to be vsed |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name? A question of ceremonies. | |
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Knoledg.
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I saye no daye more one then other | |
By Gods woorde is commaunded to fast | |
And kepe well your Saboth-daye my Brother | |
180 | All other holydayes are in waste. |
Your palmes and asshes cleane out-cast | |
Yf ye offer to stocke and stone, ye are to blame | |
They are all but fayned lyke the wyndes blast | |
And against the honour of Gods holy name. that fasting and holidaies made by man, are of non effect and all such-lyke ceremonies. | |
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Simplicite
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185 | Say ye, that fayned is the holy crucifix? |
And despyse ye the holy priests absolution? | |
Is Gods body a fayned God in the pyx? | |
Dyd not our beades stirre vs to deuotion? | |
Do not the saintes make intercessyon? | |
190 | Doth not our fastinge our flesh tame? |
Our holy-bread and holy-water gyue vs monicion | |
To honoure and prayse Gods holy name. A question of the rood-priests absolucion, of the god in the boxe, and such other | |
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Knoledge
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Of the crucifix an Idoll ye made | |
And your pristes vsurped Gods absolution pristes: =priests | |
195 | The bread in the box is no God I sayde |
And that your beades are very superstition | |
Your sayntes can make no intercessyon | |
Your fayned fastyng can not your flesh tame | |
Your water and bread, by coniuration | |
200 | Are great dyshonour to Gods holy name An answere to the same. |
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Simplicitie
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And was it not well wyth vs thynke ye | |
Whan we vsed our pylgrymage for deuotion? | |
To holy sayntes that wrought wonderfully | |
Great maruels passyng mans expectation | |
205 | And they helped vs in our perturbation |
Almost all-thyng that we asked we dyd obteyne | |
How say ye? Was not this a godly fation | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. if pylgrymage was not good and the sayntes wrought miracles. | |
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Knoledge
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That fatyon is deuelysh and cleane contrary | |
210 | To Gods commaundement, as ye shall see |
God sayd and commaunded vs very strayghtly | |
Thou shalt haue none other God but me | |
If ye worshyp ydols of stone or of tree | |
Ye or thy[n]ke they can helpe you ye are to blame | |
215 | For then ye depryue God of hys glory |
To the great dyshonour of hys holy name. that pylgrymage was deuelysh and against goddes commaundement. | |
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Simplicity
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Is fasting and prayer of no effect | |
Dyd not Chryst to vs make mencion | |
In his gospell by wordes dyrect | |
220 | That we shulde vse them for good intencyon? |
Yet some men saye ye despise the same | |
And amongest your-selues ye haue great dissention | |
To the great dishonour of Gods holy name, yf fasting and prayer are of none effect | |
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Knoledge
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Yes, fasting and prayer are much requisite | |
225 | As Chryst hym-selfe dyd to vs examplefye |
But I saye in scrypture it is not recyte | |
To fast or praye any-tyme proprelye | |
But watch ye and pray ye continually | |
Whan the fleshe doth prycke, the[n] make it tame then] them 1548 | |
230 | Wyth fasting, but beware of ypocrysye |
For that is dyshonour to Gods holy name. fasting and prayer are necessary / but no speciall tyme is therto appointed by scriptures. | |
I praye God amend all that is amys | |
In the worlde was neuer so much dyuysyon | |
One is of that sorte, an-other is of thys | |
235 | And eachone dyuers in hys opinyon |
Ye learned men fyrst must agree in one | |
That after your example, ourselues we may frame | |
Then shall we not swarue in any condicion | |
But prayse all together Gods holy name. simplycitie. prayeth that all abuses may be amended men may agre in one. | |
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Knoledge
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240 | And I pray God wyth you in that thyng |
To set at one all our diuision | |
As to hys glory shalbe perteynyng | |
That all we may agree in one | |
And no man styck to one opinion | |
245 | But as Gods worde shall teach hym the same |
Then shall we not swarue in any condition | |
But prayse all together Gods holy name Knoledge agreeth to simplicities praier. | |
Syr in-dede all the[se] are aboue my reason these] theys 1548 | |
And ye be a man well learned, men saye | |
250 | Wyll ye therfore take payne wyth me this season |
My combred conscyence to quyte and stay? | |
Ye say we shulde fast, ye say we shulde pray | |
And the supper of the lord, ye prayse much the same | |
To teach me to vse the same after the ryght way | |
255 | To the honour and prayse .etc. Simplicite desyereth to be taught the ryght way to fast, praye and to receyue the Lordes supper. |
Yea, that I wyll wyth all my harte | |
That is the thyng that I euer pretende | |
If diligently ye wyll aduerte | |
My diligence towardes you is bended | |
260 | Your symplenes hath not me offended |
Neyther my boldenes you, I thynke the same | |
And I trust your grefe shortly to ende it | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. the good-wyll of knoledge towards simplicitie. | |
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Knoledg
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Fyrst to your question how ye shuld pray | |
265 | In the .vi. of Math. lerne Chrystes doctrine |
Pray not for prayse, as Ipocrites do I say | |
But in thy chambre, se thyselfe thou declyne | |
By thy chambre / thy conscyence thou must defyne | |
And if that be clene, beleue well the same | |
270 | God wyll rewarde the / by his power diuine |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. How w[e] shulde praye.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed | |
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Knoleg[e]
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But in much babblyng esteme no felici[t]ie felicitie] felicicie 1548 | |
Lyke as dyd the Pharysees most blynde | |
Your Ladyes psalter was mere ypocrysie | |
275 | By this place of scrypture, plainly we fynde |
Your beades brought prayer cle[n]e out of kynde | |
Christe taught a prayer, let vs vse the same | |
Deuoutly to be sayd with harte and mynde | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. we are not hear[d] for our many pr[ai]ers, but for the [wor]de sayde from t[he] harte.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed | |
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Knoledg
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280 | Your mattens and euensong in a straunge tongue |
Your patched masses full of papistry | |
Your shamefull sorte of cerimon[i]es dome cerimonies] cerimones 1548 | |
As knillyng, kneling and other many knillyng: see OED s.v. knell, 'to ring a bell' | |
Do they any-thing you teach to edifie? | |
285 | And to pray and thynke not, is but in vayne |
The Godly prophet herein agreeth with me | |
All these are dyshonour to Gods holy name. matens a[nd] evensong i[n] a straung[e] tong and do[me] ceremon[i]es are b[ut] vayne.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed | |
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Knoledge
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When thou fasteth (sayth Chryst) be not sorye | |
As the ypocrytes whyche pretendyng grauitie, | |
290 | Dyd dysfigure theyr faces supersticiously |
That to mens syght they myght seme holy | |
But when thou fastest, do it secretely | |
Not for worldes glory, but thy flesh to tame | |
Than God shall rewarde the aboundauntlye | |
295 | To the honour and prayse of hys holy name. How we shuld fast |
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Knoledg
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But thys is not ment by fryday nor lent | |
By the fast of Bernard / or yet of our ladye | |
Neyther yet of the clouted cloyst[r]ers aduent cloystrers] cloysters 1548 | |
For scripture appointeth no tyme properly | |
300 | Neyther yet of meates maketh he dyuersitie |
But byddeth th[e] faste, thy fleshe for to tame the] thy 1548 | |
At all tymes when-soeuer thy flesh prycketh the | |
Thus fasting, thou honourest Gods holy name. superstycious fastynge is agaynst gods honour. | |
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Knoledge
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And now for the holy supper of the lorde | |
305 | Let paul[e] be your teacher in each degree letter obscured |
Examen your conscience / let your fayth, accorde | |
Before ye presume of so hygh a mysterye | |
For in thys point, fayth onely must be your eye | |
Fayth must be your tast, and all your wittes frame | |
310 | It is in your fayth, that ye see Gods bodye |
To the honour and prayse of hys holy name. How we shuld receyue the supper of the lorde. | |
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Knoledge
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Thynke not that ye do eate hym with your teath | |
Thynke not that ye se hym with your bodely eye | |
But eate hym and drynke hym in spyrite and fayth | |
315 | For he, yet lyuyng / dyd giue his body |
Unto hys discyples, and sayd, eate ye | |
Thys is my body: yet hys body playne | |
Before their eyes was present corporally | |
Theyr fayth dyd suffyse: their bodely brayne we do not eate Christis body nor drinke his bloud but in spiryte by fayth. | |
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Knoledge
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320 | Let fayth therfore you gouuerne and lede |
And in your harte remembre hys passyon | |
And that he dyed in very dede | |
Leuyng to vs for a commemoration | |
Hys blessed body, of such kynd and facion | |
325 | That in spyrite and fayth we shuld receyue the same |
Thus doyng / you take it to your saluation | |
To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. That we shulde before all things beleue in hys passyon. | |
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Simplicite
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I pray God thanke you with all myne harte | |
In these thynges my consyence is appeased | |
330 | And in all other I trust sone afterwarde |
My harte by you shall be well eased | |
The blyndenes that in me was, seased | |
Is almost clered and set in frame | |
And you I do thanke, whome it hath pleased | |
335 | To teach me to honour Gods holy name The thankes of simplycite for the good counsell of knoledge. |
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Knoledge
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Gyue the laude to God, as moost worthy is | |
And not vnto man, b[u]t vnto hys name | |
And praye we for the Kynges hyghnes | |
That Gods gospell hath so in frame | |
340 | That all we maye see the truth from the vayne |
That all we all errours maye worthely blame | |
That all we hys kyngdom at the last may attayne | |
In blysse all tog[e]ther to prayse hys holy name. together] toghther 1548n[o]tnot] ndt 1548 to man but to god be all glory | |
Finis. |