A Goodly Dialogue Between Knowledge and Simplicity

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A Goodly Dyalogue betwene Knowledge and Symplicitie.

IMPRINTED at London, by Anthony_Scoloker And Willyam_Seres. Dwellyng wythout Aldersgate.

Cum Gratia et priuilegio ad Imprimendum solum.

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Knoledge

GOd saue you my frende simplicitie

I am glad of your good welfare

Ye are ryght welcome vnto the Cytie

For here ye are a straunger very rare

I knowe the cause of your hyther repare

It draweth nowe towarde the terme

Ye haue some matters for to declare

And what they be fayne wolde I learne. Symplicitie is a straunger in a cytie.

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Simplicite

I thanke you Knowledge of your good-wyll

And of your kyndnes without desert /

But I cam hether for no suche skyll /

As ye haue vttered vppon your parte

But thys I thought wyth all myne harte

When I came hether vnto the terme

Wolde God I had suffred at home great smarte

Your facyons be so straunge to learne. Simplicite is sory that euer he cam in that cite, it is so full of noughtynes.

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Knoledge

I praye you syr what is your grefe

Hath any man here you offended?

Shewe it shortly in wordes brefe

And if I cane I wyll see it amended

Your cause by me shall be defended

I wyllbe with you all this terme

My counsell towardes you shalbe bended

Your symplenes to teache and learne. Knoledge desyreth to knowe his grefe / and promyseth to helpe hym.

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Simplicite

Mary Syr offended I am in-dede

And that in conscience ryght greuously

I praye God it shortlye be remedyed

That London sinke not moch maruell I,

For here is nought els but heresy

Blasphemy and slaunder all out of frame

That one man affirmeth an-other doth deny

Against the honour of Gods holy name. Simplicite thynketh that London will sinke for synne

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Knoledge

Ah Syr I knowe the cause well ynough then

Of your great grefe in your conscience

And I am ryght glad, for aboue all men

I haue much desyred to haue your presence

Content you, and shortly ye shal haue intelligence

Thogh as yet for a time, somthing be out of frame

At length amongest vs shall be no difference

Concerning the honour of Gods holy name.

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Symplicitie.

Frend Knowledge, that is a thyng impossible

That euer in one we shulde agree

So longe as we haue thys beble bible beble bible: a play on 'Bible' /'bibble-babble'?

Nay Nay Knowledge, that will not bee

Do ye not heare and dailye see

Howe men olde custome despyse and blame?

Whych thinge is greatly as thinketh me

Against the honor of Gods holy name. The Byble is cause of contrauersy. Olde custome is blamed.

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[Knol]edg

Knoledg] edg 1548

Though olde custome hath vs longe ledde

Agaynst Gods Gospell manyfestlye

Is it not mete that it shulde be for_bedde

And also despysed vtterly?

Yf truth and olde custome dysagree

Shall not trueth olde custome dispise and blame

And make hym subiecte to Gods veritie

Yis, that is the honour of Gods holy name If olde custome be against the gospell it must geue place.

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simplicitie.

Wyll ye (o knowledge) be of that minde?

Wyll ye be of that sort and gyse?

Wyll ye beginne newe wayes to fynde

And olde custome cleane to despyse?

Howe saye ye, were not our fathers wyse?

[Were] they not lerned? ye be to blame Were] Where 1548

Let theyr example your mynde suffyse

Concernyng the honour of Gods holy name The custome of our forfathers is to be obserued,

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Knoledg

Unto our fathers God be mercifull

They lyued in darkenes and we in lyght

All they were vnder a cloude moost wonderfull

Of the trueth, they had no parfect syght

But I saye, through Gods power and myght

That cloude is cleared and set in ryght frame

And all fained fantasies it shall put to flyght

To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name Our fathers as paul teacheth were vnder a cloude, and sawe not the truthe,

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simplicitie.

Wyll ye gyue me leaue to aske you a question

And with my boldnes not to be angrye

I wolde be sory in any condicion /

For to offende you, ye maye beleue me

And I desyre you euen hartelye

Shewe vnto me your opinion agayne

For we two I thynke shall not agre

Concernyng the honour of gods holy name. The ciuilitie of simplicitie.

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Knoledg

Aske what ye wyll, and by Gods grace

As well as my wyttes shall serue me

I shall make answere in lytle space

As I haue lerned in gods veritie

Be not afrayd, but speake at lybertie

What-so-euer ye saye, none shall ye blame

For surely I trust your minde to satysfye

Concernyng the honour of Gods holy name the gentell answer of Knoledg

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simplicitie.

Howe saye you (I pray the) to the holy masse

That long hath bene vsed of antiquitie

An[d] for many other thynges I let passe) And] An 1548

As of masse of requiem and scala_cely of masse] of masse of masse 1548

That delyuered our frendes soules from purgatory

Wyth many mo masses then I can name

Of the .v. woundes, and of corpus_Christi

To the honour and praise of Gods holy name The first question is of masses

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Knoledge

Such masses / I say, are but Idolatrye

Which the Romysh Antichryst dyd inuent

To blynd our eyes wyth fayned ypocrysy

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And all to get money was hys intent

What greater blasphemye was euer ment?

If masses shal saue vs, Christs death is in vayn

That suffred for vs hys flesh to be torment

Honour therfore no masse, but Gods holy name that all masses satisfactory are Idolatrye of the bisshop of Romes inuenting.

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Simplicite

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How say ye then vnto the Sacrament

Which all ye go about to denye

In the hoost, to be bodely present

Fyrst as he was borne of mary

And vppon the crosse as he dyd dye

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If ye speake agaynst thys, ye are to blame

Thys our fathers beleued, and so do I

To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. Whether Chrystes body be really present in the sacrament.

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Knoledge

The sacrament is an holy thyng

But the vse therof was farre out of frame

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And that selfe body on the crosse hangyng

And borne of mary that blessed dame

In hys corporall presens I say playne

Is not there present, surely I thynke the same

Who teacheth contrary, his doct[r]yne is vayne doctryne] doctyne 1548

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And great dyshonour to Gods holy name. that Chryste is not bodely present in the sacrament.

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simplicitie

Ah Iesus mercy what do I here?

Is not he present in the sacrament?

How say you? Is not God present alwhere?

Wyll ye deny the new Testament?

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And if he be alwhere, I say verament

He is in the sacrament I abyde by the same

Your deuelysh doctryne the deuell dyd inuent

To the great dishonour of Gods holy name. God is present alwhere and therfore his body is in the sacrament

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Knoledge

Yis syr God is present in very dede

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As well all-where, as in the Sacrament

But that vnderstand in hys Godhead

And for example learne thys presydent

The soule and the body be thynges different

But the body destroyed / the soule doth yet remaine

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And ye se not the soule, nether yet in the sacrament

Ye se Gods body, but blaspheme hys name. that God is present all-where and is not seen, as the soule of man is inuis[i]bleinuisible] inuisuble 1548 and incorruptibleinuisible] inuisuble 1548

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Simplicite

Mary syr that is abominable heresy

Is thys your new le[ar]nyng and doctryne? learnyng] leranyng 1548

What thyng can be sayd that is more blasphemy

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Ye shall neuer persuade me brother myne

Doth not the priest from tyme to tyme

Lift vp Gods body, and shew vs the same?

In fourme of bread, yea, we se it wyth oure eyen

To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. That the prest lifts vp Gods body in the sacrament

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Knoledg

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Ye are deceaued poore symplicitie

For Chryst being offred ones fro all

Shall neuer be offred agayne, beleue me.

Our masses therfore, are most Idolatry of all

Hauyng no grounde in scrypture at all

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If ye say, ye se Chryst lyft vp in the same

You commyt most shamefull ydolatry wythall

To the great dyshonour of Gods holy name. Christ offred ones can not be offred againe, masse is ydolatrie and hath no ground in scriptur.

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simplicitie.

Our curates command vs in payn of dampnacion

To beleue that Chrystes blessed bloude and body

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In the sacrament is present, of the same facyon

As he suffred / dyed, and was borne of mary

And who-soeuer doth say the contrary

To the bysshops, they do accuse the same

As one commyttyng most shamefull heresy

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To the great dyshonour of Gods holy name Curates commaunde to beleue that Gods body is present in the sacrament.

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Knoledg

Your carles Curats whome custume hath blynded custume] cunstume 1548

Do not well in that thyng knowe what they saye

But loke in the Gospell and ye shall fynde it

The selfe-same Iesus borne of a maye

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That was Crucified, dyed, and rose the iij daye

On hys fathers ryght hand now sitteth playne

Hys body is only there present I saye

Who sayth contrarye, doth blaspheme hys name Curates are blind Christ is on the righte hand of the father

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Simplicite

Howe saye you to our fasting-dayes?

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Are they not moost shamefully abused?

And what thinke you of our holydayes

Whych are not mete to be refused

Both palmes and asshes are cleane confused

And offeryng of Candels / organe wyth them

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Are not all these styll to be vsed

To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name? A question of ceremonies.

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Knoledg.

I saye no daye more one then other

By Gods woorde is commaunded to fast

And kepe well your Saboth-daye my Brother

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All other holydayes are in waste.

Your palmes and asshes cleane out-cast

Yf ye offer to stocke and stone, ye are to blame

They are all but fayned lyke the wyndes blast

And against the honour of Gods holy name. that fasting and holidaies made by man, are of non effect and all such-lyke ceremonies.

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Simplicite

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Say ye, that fayned is the holy crucifix?

And despyse ye the holy priests absolution?

Is Gods body a fayned God in the pyx?

Dyd not our beades stirre vs to deuotion?

Do not the saintes make intercessyon?

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Doth not our fastinge our flesh tame?

Our holy-bread and holy-water gyue vs monicion

To honoure and prayse Gods holy name. A question of the rood-priests absolucion, of the god in the boxe, and such other

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Knoledge

Of the crucifix an Idoll ye made

And your pristes vsurped Gods absolution pristes: =priests

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The bread in the box is no God I sayde

And that your beades are very superstition

Your sayntes can make no intercessyon

Your fayned fastyng can not your flesh tame

Your water and bread, by coniuration

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Are great dyshonour to Gods holy name An answere to the same.

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Simplicitie

And was it not well wyth vs thynke ye

Whan we vsed our pylgrymage for deuotion?

To holy sayntes that wrought wonderfully

Great maruels passyng mans expectation

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And they helped vs in our perturbation

Almost all-thyng that we asked we dyd obteyne

How say ye? Was not this a godly fation

To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. if pylgrymage was not good and the sayntes wrought miracles.

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Knoledge

That fatyon is deuelysh and cleane contrary

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To Gods commaundement, as ye shall see

God sayd and commaunded vs very strayghtly

Thou shalt haue none other God but me

If ye worshyp ydols of stone or of tree

Ye or thy[n]ke they can helpe you ye are to blame

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For then ye depryue God of hys glory

To the great dyshonour of hys holy name. that pylgrymage was deuelysh and against goddes commaundement.

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Simplicity

Is fasting and prayer of no effect

Dyd not Chryst to vs make mencion

In his gospell by wordes dyrect

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That we shulde vse them for good intencyon?

Yet some men saye ye despise the same

And amongest your-selues ye haue great dissention

To the great dishonour of Gods holy name, yf fasting and prayer are of none effect

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Knoledge

Yes, fasting and prayer are much requisite

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As Chryst hym-selfe dyd to vs examplefye

But I saye in scrypture it is not recyte

To fast or praye any-tyme proprelye

But watch ye and pray ye continually

Whan the fleshe doth prycke, the[n] make it tame then] them 1548

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Wyth fasting, but beware of ypocrysye

For that is dyshonour to Gods holy name. fasting and prayer are necessary / but no speciall tyme is therto appointed by scriptures.

I praye God amend all that is amys

In the worlde was neuer so much dyuysyon

One is of that sorte, an-other is of thys

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And eachone dyuers in hys opinyon

Ye learned men fyrst must agree in one

That after your example, ourselues we may frame

Then shall we not swarue in any condicion

But prayse all together Gods holy name. simplycitie. prayeth that all abuses may be amended men may agre in one.

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Knoledge

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And I pray God wyth you in that thyng

To set at one all our diuision

As to hys glory shalbe perteynyng

That all we may agree in one

And no man styck to one opinion

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But as Gods worde shall teach hym the same

Then shall we not swarue in any condition

But prayse all together Gods holy name Knoledge agreeth to simplicities praier.

Syr in-dede all the[se] are aboue my reason these] theys 1548

And ye be a man well learned, men saye

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Wyll ye therfore take payne wyth me this season

My combred conscyence to quyte and stay?

Ye say we shulde fast, ye say we shulde pray

And the supper of the lord, ye prayse much the same

To teach me to vse the same after the ryght way

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To the honour and prayse .etc. Simplicite desyereth to be taught the ryght way to fast, praye and to receyue the Lordes supper.

Yea, that I wyll wyth all my harte

That is the thyng that I euer pretende

If diligently ye wyll aduerte

My diligence towardes you is bended

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Your symplenes hath not me offended

Neyther my boldenes you, I thynke the same

And I trust your grefe shortly to ende it

To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. the good-wyll of knoledge towards simplicitie.

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Knoledg

Fyrst to your question how ye shuld pray

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In the .vi. of Math. lerne Chrystes doctrine

Pray not for prayse, as Ipocrites do I say

But in thy chambre, se thyselfe thou declyne

By thy chambre / thy conscyence thou must defyne

And if that be clene, beleue well the same

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God wyll rewarde the / by his power diuine

To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. How w[e] shulde praye.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed

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Knoleg[e]

But in much babblyng esteme no felici[t]ie felicitie] felicicie 1548

Lyke as dyd the Pharysees most blynde

Your Ladyes psalter was mere ypocrysie

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By this place of scrypture, plainly we fynde

Your beades brought prayer cle[n]e out of kynde

Christe taught a prayer, let vs vse the same

Deuoutly to be sayd with harte and mynde

To the honour and prayse of Gods holye name. we are not hear[d] for our many pr[ai]ers, but for the [wor]de sayde from t[he] harte.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed

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Knoledg

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Your mattens and euensong in a straunge tongue

Your patched masses full of papistry

Your shamefull sorte of cerimon[i]es dome cerimonies] cerimones 1548

As knillyng, kneling and other many knillyng: see OED s.v. knell, 'to ring a bell'

Do they any-thing you teach to edifie?

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And to pray and thynke not, is but in vayne

The Godly prophet herein agreeth with me

All these are dyshonour to Gods holy name. matens a[nd] evensong i[n] a straung[e] tong and do[me] ceremon[i]es are b[ut] vayne.right margin trimmed right margin trimmed

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Knoledge

When thou fasteth (sayth Chryst) be not sorye

As the ypocrytes whyche pretendyng grauitie,

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Dyd dysfigure theyr faces supersticiously

That to mens syght they myght seme holy

But when thou fastest, do it secretely

Not for worldes glory, but thy flesh to tame

Than God shall rewarde the aboundauntlye

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To the honour and prayse of hys holy name. How we shuld fast

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Knoledg

But thys is not ment by fryday nor lent

By the fast of Bernard / or yet of our ladye

Neyther yet of the clouted cloyst[r]ers aduent cloystrers] cloysters 1548

For scripture appointeth no tyme properly

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Neyther yet of meates maketh he dyuersitie

But byddeth th[e] faste, thy fleshe for to tame the] thy 1548

At all tymes when-soeuer thy flesh prycketh the

Thus fasting, thou honourest Gods holy name. superstycious fastynge is agaynst gods honour.

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Knoledge

And now for the holy supper of the lorde

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Let paul[e] be your teacher in each degree letter obscured

Examen your conscience / let your fayth, accorde

Before ye presume of so hygh a mysterye

For in thys point, fayth onely must be your eye

Fayth must be your tast, and all your wittes frame

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It is in your fayth, that ye see Gods bodye

To the honour and prayse of hys holy name. How we shuld receyue the supper of the lorde.

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Knoledge

Thynke not that ye do eate hym with your teath

Thynke not that ye se hym with your bodely eye

But eate hym and drynke hym in spyrite and fayth

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For he, yet lyuyng / dyd giue his body

Unto hys discyples, and sayd, eate ye

Thys is my body: yet hys body playne

Before their eyes was present corporally

Theyr fayth dyd suffyse: their bodely brayne we do not eate Christis body nor drinke his bloud but in spiryte by fayth.

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Knoledge

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Let fayth therfore you gouuerne and lede

And in your harte remembre hys passyon

And that he dyed in very dede

Leuyng to vs for a commemoration

Hys blessed body, of such kynd and facion

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That in spyrite and fayth we shuld receyue the same

Thus doyng / you take it to your saluation

To the honour and prayse of Gods holy name. That we shulde before all things beleue in hys passyon.

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Simplicite

I pray God thanke you with all myne harte

In these thynges my consyence is appeased

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And in all other I trust sone afterwarde

My harte by you shall be well eased

The blyndenes that in me was, seased

Is almost clered and set in frame

And you I do thanke, whome it hath pleased

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To teach me to honour Gods holy name The thankes of simplycite for the good counsell of knoledge.

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Knoledge

Gyue the laude to God, as moost worthy is

And not vnto man, b[u]t vnto hys name

And praye we for the Kynges hyghnes

That Gods gospell hath so in frame

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That all we maye see the truth from the vayne

That all we all errours maye worthely blame

That all we hys kyngdom at the last may attayne

In blysse all tog[e]ther to prayse hys holy name. together] toghther 1548n[o]tnot] ndt 1548 to man but to god be all glory

Finis.