An Interlocution Betwixt Man and Woman

Anon

TextBaseEarlyTudorEnglish
IBMW14109
2008
STC 14109
Ringler 14109 and TP 2181. Translated from Guillaume Alexis, 'Le debat de l'omme et de la femme', 1460? UMI microfilm reel 54; Order no. 1410

He[re] begynneth an interlocucyon / with an argument / betwyxt man and woman ...
London: Wynkyn de Worde,1525?.



Composition Date: 1525? [Ringler].







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¶He[re]Here] He 1525 begynneth an interlocucyon / with an argument / betwyxt man and woman / and whiche of them could proue to be most excellent.


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WHen Phebus reluysant / most ardent was and shene
In the hote sommer season / for my solace
Under the vmbre of a tre / bothe fayre and grene
I lay downe to rest me / where in this case.

5 ¶As after ye shall here / a stryfe there began
Whiche longe dyd endure / with great argument
Bytwyxte the woman / and also the man
Whiche of them coulde proue / to be moost excellent.


The man.

¶The fyrst whiche I herde: was the man that sayde
10 Adam our forfather / by womans shrewde councell
To ete of an apple / was pyteously betrayde
Well happy is he / that with you dothe not mell.


The woman.

Ihesu of a mayden / and vyrgyn his mother
Was incarnated / to redeme that man had loste
15 Set thou thie one / now agaynst the other
And woman is more excellent / in euery coste.


The man.

¶No women in-to aungels / neuer was transformed
But women in-to deuyls / full ofte hath ben fygurate
For theyr pryde in hell / cruelly to be burned
20 Unhappy is he / that hath one to his make.


The woman.

¶Many aungels to women / haue ben transported
More than to men / for theyr chastyte
Fyrst our dere lady / th'aungell exorted
Sayenge the son of god / in her conceyued shold be.


The man.

25 Ioseph by woman / was put in pryson
And Urye was slayne / by treason cruell
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Dauyd an adulterer / with woman was become
Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.


The woman.

Mankynde to delyuer / out of this worldly payne
30 And brynge hym to the ioye / of the celestyall place
God in his mother / toke nature humayne
Who dysprayseth women / god sende hym no grace.


The man.

For woman was slayne / the worthy prynce Amon
The loue of them causeth moche dyspleasure
35 By women was dysceyued / the sage Salomon
Whiche by the meane of them / false ydols dyd adoure


The woman.

That woman / is moost replete with grace
By good reason / I shall proue playne
For god in woman / fyrst toke his place
40 Whan into this worlde / he came certayne.


The man.

Uyrgyll the sage clerke / of great intellygence
Betrayed was by woman / as wryten ye may fynde
Trustynge in her grace / in euery mannes presence
Was tyed at a wyndowe / tyll men dyd hym vnbynde


The woman.

45 God to vs by woman / paradyse hath restored
That before was loste / by our great neglygence
And aboue all sayntes / hyghly hath honored
Mary his mother / woman of moost excellence.


The man

Townes haue be destroyed / and cytes many one
50 Dyuers men for women / be dampned depe in hell
More ioyfull vnto man / than woman hath be none
Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

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The woman.

¶By the meane of Hester / the iudgement was respyted
Of Assuerus her husband / for the Iewes all
55 Whiche sholde haue dyed / had nat he delyted
In her hye beautye / and wordes peticyonall.


The man.

Pryam / Paris and Deiphebus
Fyrst by th'occasyon /of women was slayne
Also Troylus / Hector and Helenus
60 And all Troye / hath ben confounded playne.


The woman.

Iudyth .C.M. men and mo
Made for to flye / and yelde in confusyon
After that Holefernus heed / she had cut in two
Whiche wolde haue dystroyed all the regyon.


The man.

65 ¶Woman theyr face / and foreheed doth paynt
For to deceyue / both yonge and olde
The stronge Sampson / Dalyda dyd attaynt
And hym betrayed / his heed when she had polde.


The woman.

¶Woman is honored / in euery place
70 For quene of erth / and of heuen hye
Whiche is petycioner / for mannes trespace
To [god] on theyr soules to haue mercye. god] good 1525


The man.

Some women can flatter / and moost can lye
To optayne mannes loue / they can fayne well
75 They wyll neuer leue it / vntyll they dye
Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.


The woman.

¶Woman is called / treasure of grace
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In heuen our lady / it is full suer
For she for mannes soule / doth so purchase
80 That thousandes / she saued by her prayer.


The man.

¶Some that hath be taken / for very sage
By womans loue / dyd so hym indeuer
That for it he solde / all his herytage
And after hath he dyed / a myserable begger.


The woman.

85 ¶Many hath offyces / and good wages
By women to lyue / ryght prosperately
Benefyces / and auauntages
To mayntayne men / accordyngly.


The man.

¶When a yonge pegeon / a woman hath gotyn
90 She wyll make hym / at length as stronge as a crane
For surely / she wyll neuer forsake hym
Tyll that his croper-bone wax very lame


The woman.

¶Then loke a cawdell / you do gyt
And soone ye loke you / a better norce
95 For I harde say / god gaue man wyt
To knowe the better / from the worse.


The man

¶Women wyll speke / and contrary say
They wyll nat shame / a lye to tell
To scolde and brawle / is all theyr play
100 Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.


The woman.

¶The commynge / of our lorde Ihesu
Many deuout woman / dyd prophecye
Sybellys they were / that it best knewe
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For to dysprayse women / ye do now vnwyslye.


The man.

105 ¶One must them gyue / that they desyre
To bete or correcte them / they waxen worse
They neuer wyll stynt / for to requyre
As longe as a peny / is in ones purse.


The woman.

¶When all th'appostles / from our lorde flyed
110 Women tyll his deth / styll dyd hym ensue
Neuer woman / our lorde denyed
As Peter dyd / but euer was true.


The man.

¶When ye of ony man / knowe the intencyon
Whiche coulde be secrete / ye publysshe it by and by
115 Unto your gosseppys / ye make therof mencyon
As soone as ye togyther byb / chatryng lyke a pye.


The woman.

Chryste after his deth / for our consolacyon
Fyrst shewed / vnto woman personally
To Mary_magdaleyn / after his resurreccyon
120 Whiche for his deth / bewayled greuously.


The man.

¶A wyfe of her husbande / wyll haue the audyence
As chyef maystres / her tale to tell
She wyll crye and wepe / except she haue the preemynence
W[e]ll happy is he / that with them doth not mell. Well] Wyll 1525


The woman.

125 ¶That a man shold a woman / or his wyfe byleue
By Abraham / is sygnyfyed playne
For god vnto Sara / fyrst knowlege dyd gyue
That a chyld shold be procreat: bytwyxt them twayne


The man.

¶Many cautelous craftes / now women they haue
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130 To make them proper / and coynte to seme
For proude apparell / euer styll they craue
Yet be they moost stynkynge / and fylthy within.


The woman.

¶Of good women / haue be founde many one
Whiche haue ben chast / and holy vyrgyns pure
135 And that out of goddes lawes / neuer hath gone
Wherfore in heuen / now sayntys be they sure.


The man.

¶But now of euyll / there be so many
Theyr kynde encreaseth / styll euery day
From euyl in-to worse / so fast they multyplye
140 That wolde the deuyll: had one to cary th'other away


The woman.

One vyrgyn another for goddis loue hath martyred
By compulsyon of man / as scrypture hath exprest
That in a day .xi. thousand dyed
Wherfore to dysprayse women / ye do not best.


The man.

145 ¶Consyderyng the euyll / which of women haue com
How false they be / how cursed and cruell
One ought to flye them / and from them to ronne
For well happy is he / that with them doth not mell


The woman.

¶All the nobles / of tyme passed
150 And all the sayntes / of paradyse
Fyrst all from women / they haue proceded
For to dysprayse women / in fayth ye be not wyse.


The man.

¶Do weye your blame / and laude in balaunce
To se of them / whiche twayne weye moste
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155 And when that ye se / there the dyfferaunce
I trowe of your laude / ye wyll make small boste.


The woma[n].

¶For all the blames / and offence
That agaynst vs women / ye can laye
Consyder the bounte / of our ladyes excellence
160 And all our euylles / her goodnes dothe delaye.


La femme replique.

¶Now the conclusyon / the woman thus began
These infamous men / with all theyr polecy
All noble women / wolde gladly defame
Were not our goodnes / excedynge theyr glory.

165 ¶For Caym kylled Abell / his gentyll brother
And Iudas / Ruben his father dyd slay
Nero made open / his owne mother
To se the place / where that he lay

¶The men of Iury / made god to dye
170 Iudas_scaryot hym solde / by false treason
And after hym-selfe hanged / this is no lye
Wherfore styll in payne / his soule it doth won.

Chrystes Apostles / dyd hym denye
Men dyd hym crucefye / by great vyolence
175 And tyrans enraged / dyspyte fullye
Ten thousande / slewe of Innocence.

¶Also in a day / they dyd confounde
A .xi. thousande vyrgyns / vnto theyr deth
Some they heedyd / and some they drownde
180 Some they smolthered / and stopped theyr breth.

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¶Men they had / peruerse courage
As ye may se / now euydently
To do vnto sayntes / suche oultrage
Without offence / and no cause why.

185 ¶Men make warres / and dyscencyons
In euery place / as ye may se
Theftes / mordres / and traysons
Replete with all / iniquyte.

¶More men / there be in pryson
190 In chaynes bounde / for theyr offence
More women / come vnto sermon
To lerne goddys lawes / with dylygence.

¶Of euery man / in all degre
Mother and norces / women hath ben
195 Of all that are / and euer shalbe
Women haue fyrst th'autorite clen.

¶Wherfore of vs / ye ought say well
For to myssay / ye can not wyn
And ye that hath no grace / goodnes to tell
200 To holde his peace / is best for hym.

¶Do ye say / of vs the best
Syns we ye kept / when ye were small
For of lytell medlynge / cometh moche rest
And god amende / the worst of vs all.

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¶The auctor.

205 ¶Of this argument / the hole entent
I marked it / effectually
And after I had herde / them at this discent
I presed towardes them / incontynently
But when they sawe me / aproche them to
210 Lest I wolde repreue / theyr argument
Full fast they fledde / then bothe me fro
That I ne wyst / whyther they went
Wherfore now to iudge / whiche is moost excellent
I admyt it / vnto this reders prudence
215 Whyther to man or woman / is more conuenyent
The laude to be gyuen / and wordly magnyfycence.


Finis.
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