Thursday 15 October 2020 8:23am
In this Otago Bulletin Board series we sit down with staff members and learn more about what makes them tick. Here we hear from Health Science First Year Director and immunologist Associate Professor Jo Kirman. She tells us about where she came from, how her own harrowing year as an HSFY student shaped her, a hankering for the banjo and why she’s a fan of pumpkin pie.
Health Science First Year Director and immunologist Associate Professor Jo Kirman.
Associate Professor Jo Kirman, wonderful to have this chance to sit down with you. Firstly, what is it you do here at the University of Otago?
I’m an immunologist, interested in infectious diseases, an Associate Professor in Microbiology and Immunology, I’m still teaching, I run a lab, and I’m Director of Health Science First Year. Research-wise, my research is all on tuberculosis and really focussing on vaccine development and understanding what a protective immune response against TB looks like.
And I’m a mum! And I’m involved with our local church as well, so I help out there.
And if we can go right back to the beginning – where do you hail from?
I was born in Auckland in the mid-70s and my parents actually still live in the same house I grew up in, in Pakuranga. Both of my parents are teachers.
I started off at the local primary school and then my mother started teaching at Dio [Diocesan School for Girls] in town. So, my sister and I both went there for most of our schooling, though I spent my final year at Macleans College.
And you came straight from school to Otago. Why here?
I was reflecting on that the other day, I actually don’t know why I decided to come to Otago. I think my sister had been planning to come and then at the last minute changed. So, she’d done all the scoping out of the hostels for me and said, ‘oh, you should apply here and here’. And I did.
You came down to Otago to study medicine. But you ended up not doing medicine. Can you talk me through that?
Well, when I came down to Otago I came down on crutches because I had injured my foot in a boat propeller.
That’s a visceral image!
It sounds horrendous! I was scuba diving, and it went a bit wrong. I had surgery and I came down on crutches. I came late as well because I had to wait for my foot to start healing. And unfortunately coming to university and sitting in classes with my foot down stopped the healing process. So, I got told I’d need to stay home with my foot elevated.
And somewhere in the middle of all of this I dislocated my other leg. Because I was just using it all the time.
When they relocated it at the hospital they said ‘would you like crutches?’, and I said, ‘well, I’m already on crutches and what leg am I supposed to walk on now?’
I did have those thoughts of ‘should I keep going or should I just give up?’, but I decided I’d keep going. I knew that year was going to be a bit of a write-off, I mean I obviously didn’t get good grades, but I did well enough that I could keep going ahead.
And it’s a thing I try to impress on students in Health Sci First Year, that this is just one year of your life. If you really want to do Medicine, or you really want to do Dentistry or Pharmacy or whatever you’re trying to get into, you can get in through graduate entry if you work hard.
So that was my aim. I started doing Biochemistry and I had one Immunology paper and I really loved it. So, I managed to switch departments and did my Honours year in Microbiology and Immunology.
Then you’re facing a potential PhD. Is that the point when you decide, ‘I’m not going to be a medical doctor, I’m going to go and do this’?
I think I had decided during that Honours year that I really loved what I was doing. And the opportunity came up to do my PhD through the Wellington School of Medicine, so still through Otago, but at the Malaghan Institute. I became interested in human TB through that link.
And following your PhD, you didn’t stay in academia?
No, I was full-time researching, I wasn’t in academia at all until I came down to Otago in 2012. I moved to the United States and worked at the National Institutes of Health, which is a government-funded body in Bethesda, Maryland. It’s massive. It’s got its own fire and police departments. It’s like a city for biomedical scientists.
I started off in Building 10, which was one of the largest brick buildings in the Northern Hemisphere! Then my supervisor moved to this new place on the NIH campus that was set up to do HIV vaccine research and I was not supposed to be working on TB there, so I spent a lot of time working in other labs as well. I went to Colorado quite often and worked at Colorado State University, and I worked in the biohazard three facility of the FDA [the United States Food and Drug Administration] and also another satellite part of the NIH called Twinbrook II.
At the time it was a bit irritating but actually in hindsight it was great. I lived in Bethesda, right next to Washington DC. It was a wonderful place.
And then you come back home. Were you coming back to academia, or coming back to New Zealand?
I came back for New Zealand. I was at the Malaghan Institute for 10 years, soft funded with a research lab there. And after those 10 years I came down to Otago.
Why?
I’d actually had a few people ask me to come down. And the reality was to survive in that soft-funded world at that time, I’d have to be running two large external research grants simultaneously. And it started to seem that was going to be quite challenging. So, I did start to think seriously about getting an academic position.
And, I had been teaching at Victoria University, just guest lecturing, but I really enjoyed it. So, I was quite happy to move into academia.
So, you’re here and you’re busy – you’ve got your lab and your teaching and your research. And the Director of Health Science First Year role comes up. You’re as busy as you are, and you take that on?
Well, I had been deputy director of the biomedical sciences programme and acting director for some time as well, so I had looked after a programme before. And I really enjoy working with students. So, when I heard about the role, it was something I was quite interested in. And I guess having that personal experience, having gone through the system as well.
It’s confronting, isn’t it, that this year’s students will see a very grown up, adult Jo Kirman with lots of responsibilities. But presumably you can still see you when you weren’t that. Can you still see the world through your 18 year old eyes and see where current students are at?
Absolutely, I’d like to think so. But then, obviously I’m quite coloured by all of the things that have happened since so it might be a bit naïve to say ‘yes, I can’. And my 18-year-old world was very different from the 18-year-old world these students are in now.
I actually went to my old hostel last year, Knox College, found my room and in the wardrobe my name was still written up there. I’d written it in Twink and it was really quite massive. And I thought ‘well, if I’d known, I might have made it a bit more subtle’!
So you’ve got this huge responsibility with HSFY, then COVID-19 comes.
Woah! I mean it’s baptism by fire. That was really tough. Because obviously I was learning the role at the same time. Luckily there was some overlap between John [Professor John Reynolds, Jo’s predecessor in the role] and me so he was able to mentor me through those early months. But nothing could prepare you for COVID-19.
I think the good thing was, actually, that I had been speaking to Michael Baker back in January, so I did know something was going to happen. I wasn’t blindsided by it. But it was definitely a tough time. And 100 percent tough on the students. And I think that’s what made it tough for all of the teaching staff because they could really empathise with the students’ trials and tribulations.
And everyone was experiencing very different pressures during that time. Some students went home to a great family environment where someone was able to look after them and get them food and do their laundry. And they did really well because they had that supportive environment, their internet was great.
And then we had other people going home and they were the caregivers to the children in the family while the essential workers, who were the parents, had to go out. Their learning environment was very different because basically they’d have to wait until the evenings to be able to do their work.
We know adversity breeds strength. This 2020 cohort, with what they’ve been through, they’re going to go on to achieve great things, aren’t they?
Oh, I would 100 percent think so, yeah! They will be made of tough stuff, absolutely. I have been blown away how quickly most students have adapted to doing things online and doing exams online and their willingness to do that. Obviously, I understand that for some students that was a really difficult thing, it wasn’t an easy thing to do. But I have been blown away by the spirit they’ve had.
Changing tack a bit, if you could go back in time, and you’re introducing someone to a 7-year-old Jo Kirman, what would you say?
Seven-year old me? Well I know my teacher told my parents I would run the classroom if she let me!
And now you are.
It is ironic, isn’t it! So, I might have been outspoken? But yeah, I think apart from that I probably have always had a bit of a stubborn streak. So, probably a bit stubborn, but pretty happy, I would say. A generally happy, curious kid.
And at high school, were you clearly an Associate Professor in the making?
Oh, I don’t think so, no. I was someone who loved science, I was a ‘science monitor’. We did do career days, I went and looked at engineering actually, that was something I was quite interested in. But I decided the biological sciences was what I was really interested in.
Engineering is quite male dominated, isn’t it? And you’re known for being quite a fierce champion of the underdog, particularly women in science. Can you explain that?
Yes, absolutely I am. There is still quite a lot of inequality – in certain sciences, I wouldn’t say it’s true of all sciences. But, if you’re looking at any data, whether it’s publications and senior authorship, whether it’s grant success rates in women versus men, there is a big difference.
I think there are inherent biases we all bring to the forefront. And I can say it’s not just men being biased against women, it’s women who are biased against other women as well. I think we often have this pre-conceived notion that a scientist is a man.
Women have a lot to bring to the table. It benefits everybody if we can support everybody to be successful in science. If they’re good people, then they should be equally capable of getting grants and getting good publications as well.
And it’s not that women aren’t capable, they are. More than half of our students are female, coming through, so we have to be making this an acceptable and welcoming career choice for them.
You’ve also been described as having great integrity. Where has that sprung from?
You’d have to ask the person who said it! But where has it sprung from? I’d say my parents have a lot of integrity, they always have, and my sister. We were kind of brought up that way. It’s just comfortable for me. It’s how I feel happier.
A final few questions; you lived in the US for a long time, do you have any US hangovers? Line dancing? Pumpkin pie?
Ha, I did used to make pumpkin pies, for years actually! There were so many things about the US that I really enjoyed. And I’ve… I don’t know if I should admit this, but… I’ve always wanted to learn the banjo! I do also have an acoustic guitar, but I just love the banjo. But I’ve never done it. It’d drive people crazy, but I love it.
I had a friend who I spent a few Thanksgivings with and her family, they had the autoharp, and the banjo. Oh my gosh, it was just awesome!
And I learned to sail in America, which is ironic given that I’m a New Zealander. It was in the Chesapeake Bay. I mean, Chesapeake Bay’s huge and Annapolis is really known for their sailing and they had a sailing club at NIH. So, I learned to sail.
What does Jo Kirman do on a week off?
A week off? I never have a week off! I don’t, because there’s always a child, so it’s not quite a week off.
But, what I did after lockdown was my daughter, she’s 11, and my dog and I went to Central and we bought some sketch books before we went and just did a bit of drawing. And we caught up with some friends who had flown down from Wellington. So we just had a really nice relaxing time. Did lots of walking the dog – the dog was beside himself with all the rabbits. It was just fun, it was relaxing. We chilled out.
What are your vices?
Chocolate. That’s my number one vice! Or a coping strategy, maybe! I do like watching Netflix. My daughter and I watch movies together and we always cry.
And finally, COVID prediction. What’s going to happen?
I think COVID is going to be with us for a long time. It will probably be one of these things that lingers around. What will see us out of this? Our fastest bet, I think, is a therapeutic answer. Because you know who to treat. So, if there was a drug that could be made that, if people are sick and are presenting to hospital, you can give it to them and keep them ideally out of hospital or out of the ICU, it will take the sting out of the disease. Because then it does become less scary. That would be ideal.