30 with the VC | Professor Louise Parr-Brownlie

30 WITH THE VC — LOUISE PARR-BROWNLIE
Speakers: Grant Robertson and Professor Louise Parr-Brownlie
Duration: 29:54

Lightly edited automated transcript. Timestamps are approximate; speaker labels follow the conversation. Uncertain wording is marked in brackets.

[00:00:00] Grant Robertson:
Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai haere mai. Welcome to 30 with the VC. With me, Grant Robertson, the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Otago, Ōtākou Whakaihu Waka. This is a series where we talk to our staff and researchers at the University of Otago about the amazing work that they're doing. And today's guest is Professor Louise Parr-Brownlie from the Department of Anatomy. Kia ora, Louise.

[00:00:22] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Kia ora, Grant.

[00:00:23] Grant Robertson:
It's great to have Louise with us and she's just back from the United Nations and we're going to talk about that very soon. But before we do that, as we do at the beginning of each of these shows, we ask our guests to bring in some objects to help explain who they are and what they do. And Louise, what have you brought us today?

[00:00:41] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So I brought in two things. The top one here is a telemeter, a light stimulator, and we use that in some of our experiments as a potential future treatment for Parkinson's disease. So essentially the product was made, but it needed to be what we call beta-tested—tested to know whether it actually works, and whether, when you implant it into a body, does it stay sealed? And how long is it—can it remain active for? So we tested them in our rat model of Parkinson's disease for over five months, and it all worked really well. So that was the first thing. That was quite a long journey to get to that point in my research.

But as I was going through that, I realised that deep brain stimulation, which is a treatment offered to people with Parkinson's disease, is only offered to about ten people per year in New Zealand. And so generally, if you—if the person is older or has any complicating factors, like they're living with diabetes or high blood pressure, they won't be offered this treatment because it involves really invasive brain surgery to put an electrode into the brain. And so I went, well, if this is the kind of treatment we're looking at, the future of deep brain stimulation, actually a lot of people won't be offered it. And actually I wanted to explore more equitable solutions for people living with Parkinson's disease.

So I was talking with colleagues, and they talked about diet and the way that diet can be used to slow the progression of Parkinson's disease and other neurological disorders. And what we knew from a clinical study in New Zealand, or two clinical studies in New Zealand, was that the ketogenic diet can significantly improve Parkinson's symptoms; in a second study, dementia symptoms. And so we went, okay, great, great outcome. We didn't want to administer a ketogenic diet. Like, for people living with Parkinson's disease, their weight is really light, and most people go on the ketogenic diet as a method of weight control. So we didn't want that outcome.

So we started thinking about what happens in the brain during the ketogenic diet. What are the chemical changes? And so we started administering those chemicals. So the chemical that's there is niacin, which is vitamin B3. And so we have conducted studies with that, and we found that movements improve significantly in our animal model, and also a significant reduction in the number of the cells that die off from Parkinson's disease that produce the chemical dopamine.

[00:03:13] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So that's an incredible outcome.

[00:03:14] Grant Robertson:
Isn't it?

[00:03:15] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
That's just amazing.

[00:03:16] Grant Robertson:
So your two parts of the journey of the treatment of Parkinson's. Neuroscience and specifically research into Parkinson's has been your academic life. How did neuroscience become what you wanted to do? Did you always want to be a neuroscientist?

[00:03:33] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
No, not at all. Um, so back when I was at school, um, I was really good at sport, and I used to represent New Zealand at orienteering. And so I got to, in my seventh-form year, and I thought, “I want to do a Bachelor of Physical Education.” It was at the end, and Otago was the only place I could do that. And I actually went, “If I don't get into Phys Ed School, I'm not going to go to university at all.” So now I look back and think that was just, like, that's insane. But, um, so I did come down and I did the really science side of that, which is motor control, biomechanics and exercise physiology. And so from the motor control, control of the body during movements, it's a natural progression to become interested in how brain cells connect together, how they control movements, and then in a condition like Parkinson's disease, you know, what happens in the brain that underlies the movement deficits, and then how do we treat it?

[00:04:31] Grant Robertson:
I always love the stories of how people come to this, that, you know, this is one of the great things, I think, about coming to university, is finding out what your passion is, what you care about, what interests you. And it, it might not be the thing that you think. You know, the idea of Louise Parr-Brownlie, maybe Phys Ed teacher or something like that, you know, actually transitioning to this. I think it's, it's one of the things, the beauties of universities, that I worry sometimes when students are faced with such big costs, that they won't redirect themselves when they find something. Yet it's, it's the way you find your passion.

[00:05:09] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Absolutely, and finding your passion is definitely what you want to do while you're at university because that becomes your life's work.

[00:05:17] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, that's right. Before we get into a little bit of detail just for those who aren't aware if you're describing neuroscience we've kind of talked about a little bit but broadly speaking what is neuroscience that distinguishes it from anything else that might be being done in this kind of area of research?

[00:05:34] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So neuroscience is a very broad topic. It's anything to do with the brain and the nervous system, so the spinal cord and actually also the nerves going out to the muscles. And it also involves the senses, so sight, hearing and so on. And essentially people investigate or research in neuroscience in very, very different ways. So a lot of people will be working with people and asking them questions and trying to change the health system as part of that. Other people will use animal models. Other people will use tissues. Other people will explore big data that we've already got in New Zealand, such as the interRAI data that has a whole lot of measures around, for older people, as they're being assessed for the services that they might need around care.

[00:06:22] Grant Robertson:
Yes, a really broad field. For you, you've obviously mentioned animal models as the area that you, you work within, but clearly you do other things as well along the way. From your perspective, I mean Parkinson's is obviously something that many of us know about. Most New Zealanders will know people who either have Parkinson's or within a family grouping. For you, what's the meaningfulness for you of, say, the fact that you've ended up in Parkinson's? What does that really mean to you?

[00:06:54] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
For me, it's the opportunity to engage with individuals and their family. It actually drives what I do, um, and it was that reminder, actually, working with one of the whānau up in Puketeraki, that we were having conversations about the neurological services here in Dunedin. And that's—it was a good reminder of what I, what, why I do what I do. Um, and it is about improving lives. It is about changing outcomes, um, and moving whatever system along on the journey it needs to take to better deliver for everyone.

[00:07:31] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, the other thing that strikes me, particularly in a field like neuroscience, is the time. And I think, you know, as, as somebody who's come back into the university after a period of time of being away, the length of time that's needed to bring something through from those early investigations, through trials and so on. Do you want to, do you want to say a little bit about that kind of journey of a scientist, as to, as to the length of time it might take and what you need to be able to navigate a journey that is that long as a scientist?

[00:08:05] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Yeah, so the short, really short answer is it can easily be 15 to 25 years. So there might be some initial discovery about how the brain is working, something that you think might be an important mechanism around a treatment option, and then you've got to prove that. And you prove that in small models, and then you take it up to big models and eventually up into humans as a model. And so that can take quite some time to get through that trajectory. If you're talking about a device like this one, there's all the engineering that goes alongside that, and then there's all the regulatory control that has to be done as well. So, and as you're doing all those experiments, it requires money and millions of dollars, and that is a real sticking point at the moment.

[00:08:53] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Funding in New Zealand has never, we've never had lots of funding, but it's particularly tough at the moment. And so when you're trying to take something along on a 15-year journey, you have to secure money for all of that. And meanwhile, you're training your early career researchers and your postdoctoral fellows and trying to help their career development. So there's a lot that happens in the background for any discussion and results that we talk about.

[00:09:16] Grant Robertson:
Absolutely. And one of the things folks may not know about, Louise, is that you've been doing a lot of work in the background, working with MBIE in particular in your role as a science advisor there. What have you learned about the kind of connection? You're a researcher, you're a scientist yourself, but you've also found yourself working within the government system on how we organise, how we fund things. What's been the biggest thing you think you've learned out of that?

[00:09:44] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
I think two things. The people that were working in the ministry and I was working alongside and providing advice around either solutions or different ways that things could be done. They're actually our strongest allies. They are strong advocates for supporting science in New Zealand. The other side is that as researchers, we often think that if they haven't taken our advice, then people think that they need more evidence and throw more evidence at them. That is so not the case. Advice is only one of many things, including the political, strategic aspects that ministers are having to navigate. And so more evidence is not usually needed.

[00:10:33] Grant Robertson:
And that is a difficult thing for a researcher. I can't believe I'm saying this back to you. This is a difficult thing for a researcher whose life is based in evidence. What then do you think is the trick for our researchers communicating to both policy makers and policy implementers?

[00:10:54] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
I think having open discussions is really important. Sometimes it is all around timing, so those open discussions might be three or five years before that topic suddenly comes up. And so you're kind of priming them for a future discussion around what might be required. And then the other aspect is around communication. So really effective communication, knowing how to land it, knowing the language that the person you're talking to—and what they're going to be receptive to—is incredibly important. Um, yeah.

[00:11:26] Grant Robertson:
The contradiction sort of sits in my head. We're talking about a 15 to 20 year time scale here, and often, particularly the policy makers, the politicians, are thinking in their three-year electoral cycle and the bridging of the gap. And Minister Reti, when he was the minister, he and I had that conversation. It was all about impact of research, which I absolutely understand. But I remember saying to him once, you know, researchers don't emerge fully formed. It's a process. So bridging that gap, it seems to me to be one of the challenges we have about how we build the workforce that will have the impact.

[00:12:06] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Yeah, it's fundamental good communication skills, and I think it is also empowering people to go in and have those conversations. Often you feel like a little bit, like, “Why would they want to talk to me?” But actually they do need to hear from a range of people and perspectives, and I think being known as a trusted ally is really important. And that's really about having a conversation.

[00:12:34] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, that's right. Alongside the other strings to Louise as a researcher and being part of the policy process, I'm really interested to ask you about your perspective on mātauranga Māori and its relationship to, I guess, what we would broadly call Western science. He said, trying to come up with a term. You sit, in my perspective, at the kind of intersection of those two concepts. If that's true, how does that feel? If it's not true, where do you think you sit?

[00:13:07] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
No, I think you're right. So I've used a lot of Western techniques in my research, but I'm also aware that that is only part of the story, and holistic approaches are really important. And so when I go back to that niacin experiment, having kai as rongoā is really important, so it really resonated for me. And having a much more equitable outcome is, of course, really important. So mātauranga holds an important place in New Zealand's research. It is a knowledge system. Just because things weren't written down does not mean it wasn't valid and can't be tested and actually proven in today's world that it is important. So I fundamentally believe that. And a lot of the time I'm bridging between those two kind of places.

[00:14:00] Grant Robertson:
For me, when it comes to the kind of research and the kind of science that may be done, it's often what's the question and who's asking the question? And then what are the best ways of answering that question? And that can be often a mixture of techniques.

[00:14:13] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So it's having it fit for purpose. And for me, it's for a lot of people in New Zealand, it's not excluding mātauranga, being open to the fact that it might actually teach you quite a lot.

[00:14:26] Grant Robertson:
Indeed, and to call out the sort of elephant in the room, we've had some scientists reject the idea that mātauranga Māori should be part of curriculum, that it should be part of what we do. I think what you're saying very clearly is that both it has its own scientific validity, but also, as Aotearoa New Zealand, this is special to us. And, and I presume you would believe that anyone working in a scientific field in New Zealand should at least, as you say, have the possibility to make space for mātauranga Māori.

[00:15:00] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Yeah, absolutely, because it's about you're doing research in this place. And the context is everything. And so why wouldn't you, if this is going to offer a solution to whatever the research is trying to solve, why wouldn't you?

[00:15:17] Grant Robertson:
And I think that's the thing, that it's the possibility rather than the challenge and that's, again, how you focus it. For you personally, how do you see this evolving for you as you move forward in your research career? Where do you see the flows of mātauranga Māori?

[00:15:36] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Oh, that's a really tough one. So at the moment, things are quite challenging for our Māori researchers. So over the last year or so, research that was humanities-focused and social science-focused in New Zealand as an area of research priority and funding has reduced significantly. And Māori have been, in those two areas, have been the predominant receivers of that funding. So that makes it really tough. And at the moment here at Otago, we do have some Māori research grants that are targeted for our Māori colleagues, so we've repurposed those to address that gap in the funding landscape. And that was really important to me because we need all of our range of Māori colleagues to keep going through in their careers.

[00:16:29] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
We need them to bring through the next generation of researchers. We need them to work with all of their communities to actually deliver the outcomes and serve what's really important which is our whānau.

[00:16:41] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, and look, it has—it's been an enormously challenging time. And, you know, to see access to the Marsden Fund taken away for social sciences, and then to see the Marsden Fund disappear as well, it's going to be a really difficult time. It seems to me that interdisciplinary collaboration is going to be one of the ways that, at least in the short term, as we deal with this particular period of time that we're in now, a way that we'll see mātauranga Māori find its way through. And those collaborations, I hope, are ones that we'll see across the university.

[00:17:15] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Absolutely. So transdisciplinary research is the way that it's going on the international stage. If we're going to solve any of the big problems, whether that's climate change, whether that's brain health, we have to have people from very different fields all talking together and posing different solutions to actually come up with what is going to work. One of the tricky things is that each field works in a different language and they need to come to this common language that they can all understand. But I will say, as Māori researchers, we're used to working like that. And so we navigate those spaces. We're used to working with a diverse group of people in whānau. So I think that's something we actually excel at. And so going forward, it is a way that we can really flourish, but I also want to make sure that they can flourish in their research specialty and have that narrow focus as well.

[00:18:10] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's easy to sort of default and say that Māori researchers can be that kind of glue, as it were, but actually supporting people to do fundamental research is what it's about.

[00:18:22] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
It's important too.

[00:18:22] Grant Robertson:
Yeah. So you mentioned internationally and I'm really keen to move now to talk about your most recent experiences at the UN. And this is a kind of an interesting concept, the idea of the United Nations resolution on the brain. Tell me about it.

[00:18:41] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So brain health is actually one of the biggest challenges that we are facing worldwide. So, so if you think of climate change, if you think of cybersecurity and security with people attacking our infrastructures in any way, brain health is alongside it, but most people are unaware of that. So if I give some New Zealand stats, over 2.6 million people are living with a brain condition in New Zealand. So that's a neurological, neurodegenerative, mental health condition. So essentially 50% of our population. It's massive. And yet somehow it's not on the radar, really anywhere, whether it's in the media or whether it's with our politicians. And we do need to change that.

So for politicians, the key thing is that we lose 7% of our GDP. That's a rough estimate that I just did as I was going to the UN. What is the stat that will resonate with politicians and ministers? I think it's 7% of our GDP is being lost, and it's probably greater than that, because with neurological conditions we don't actually have the care and the family support aspect within that. With mental health we do. So it is massive.

[00:20:02] Grant Robertson:
And not just for New Zealand, obviously for the world.

[00:20:04] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
For the world, absolutely. And moving forward, we are not going to have enough workers to do all the work that needs to be done. We need people to be well. We need the brain to be well so they make good decisions. So brain capital is the most valuable asset that any human has. If your brain does not work well, the rest does not matter.

[00:20:27] Grant Robertson:
And that is a fascinating way of reframing that because I think, again, it's one of those things: if you don't stop and think, you won't, you won't bring yourself back to brain health as the kind of core of this. So you were up in New York having conversations about this at a global level. How was that for you?

[00:20:48] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
It was, it was amazing. That's the short answer.

[00:20:52] Grant Robertson:
Louise used another adjective earlier, but we don't use that for a family show. But carry on.

[00:20:56] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
It was absolutely amazing. So there were a few conversations that I had while I was there. So one of them was on a panel, and it was part of the European Partnership for Brain Health, which I co-lead for New Zealand. And on that, one of the questions I was asked to address was, “New Zealand's on the other side of the world. Why would New Zealand want to join the European Partnership?” And it does come down to: we face the same challenges around brain health that the rest of the world has. But I also wanted to frame it as, well, New Zealand's not—never going to be the biggest funder supporting the initiative that we have over the next ten years. But, you know, we come in with some mighty strengths, and, and I wanted to remind them of that. So while we were up in New York, we went into the New Zealand Permanent Mission.

[00:21:43] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
We had a roundtable event. And my colleagues and even the people that were in the audience later on were saying, well, how did you manage to do that? I went, well, in New Zealand, you've got a small country. It only takes a couple of steps and someone knows someone and that's how you end up doing it. So sure, you've still got to have the messages and create the will that they want to engage, but the ability to actually get to that conversation is much easier.

[00:22:10] Grant Robertson:
And it's so true that we can bring a lot to that conversation. This is part within the Horizon Europe frame. I wonder if you want to talk a little bit about where the European partnership's going and what you think we might see out from that in the next few years. For those who don't know, Horizon Europe is this massive European-wide research fund, and a few years ago New Zealand joined it as an associate member. So that means that we can participate. But the Brain Partnership specifically, where do you see that going?

[00:22:41] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So it's a ten-year initiative. It is over—it's 64 partners from 36 countries, most of whom are in Europe. It's 500 million euros of money that is going to be supporting research. And so what is really important there is, in order for anyone to get research funding, they have to join a consortium with at least two other and up to five other countries or areas of the world. And so what it means is it's getting people to work with people that they haven't worked with before, or bringing new people into their team, and getting them to pose a question that is important globally. But that also it is—the partnership does also allow, um, place-relevant as well. So we have New Zealand eligibility that means that we actually require a Māori health advancement statement. So we have—they have to serve New Zealand, uh, the Māori population. So there's ways of really navigating it, being really strategic about how we create benefit for New Zealand overall.

[00:23:46] Grant Robertson:
Yeah, I think it's so exciting to be able to partner in that way. And, you know, use sums of money like 500 million euros, and we sit here in New Zealand with our research budgets and think we have to be a part of this, because this is both the value of what you're bringing scientifically, but financially is enormous. These awful sorts of questions you ask in a sort of half-hour interview, what are the keys to brain health?

[00:24:13] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Oh, excellent. So to keep your brain healthy, about five to eight things, depending on what you read about, and things that a lot of us do know.

[00:24:25] Grant Robertson:
But maybe don't do them.

[00:24:28] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Maybe. So exercise. So exercise daily, so walking, 30 minutes of walking. It's also things like thinking of your balance and your strength, so thinking a little bit more broadly there. Eating well. So eating good protein, having fresh food and vegetables. Sleep. Eight hours of preferably quality sleep is so important because when you go into deep sleep, there's a system called REM sleep, but the glymphatic system, where it actually drains toxins and bad proteins that you need to clear from your brain. And it only happens when you're in deep sleep.

[00:25:13] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So you need deep sleep. Keeping your brain active, learning something new every day, whether it's a new word, whether it's a new skill. Keeping it active. Being socially engaged. Taking time out. Our lives are so incredibly busy that some people would do that as mindfulness. Some people would do that as writing down things that they're really grateful for. But meditation, whatever it is, taking some time to slow your brain down is incredibly important.

[00:25:49] Grant Robertson:
I think it's so interesting because those are all very practical things. Yeah, but as you, as we were saying before, we know them, but we don't always bring them into practice. I want just briefly to talk about sleep for a minute, because it was one of the very best advice I ever got when I was having some issues with headaches and things like that, talking to a neurologist. His main piece of advice to me was, “Get some sleep.” Yeah, it's amazing that such a fundamental thing for us. Is that the kind of stuff then for, that you, you know, neuroscientists, and partly through the partnership, might start drilling into? How do we get people to be able to sleep? How do they understand that? Is that, is that where this sort of work goes?

[00:26:31] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
It can do. So I know that some of the funding applications that are going through now did actually focus on sleep, but it can also be more generally around behaviour modification, full stop. Because when we know things and yet we don't do them, what can we—how can we change the messaging? What would make a difference so that people actually respond? And I think sometimes it's around, “Oh, they're all big things.” Actually they're not. If you're able, walk a flight of stairs rather than taking the lift. Yeah, don't take the car if you're going to go to, you know, a few doors down the road, if you're able. So if you're standing doing the dishes, stand on one leg, close your eyes for just five seconds, what's your balance like? So yeah, there are things that you can actually weave into your day that are important but aren't necessarily, like, an overloading amount of work.

[00:27:25] Grant Robertson:
It's amazingly interesting. Just as we move to wrap the conversation up, as you think ahead over the next few years, firstly for your own research, where do you want to be with your research in the next few years?

[00:27:38] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
Oh, that's a really good question. My research, I'm actually changing it in a wee bit because of all the leadership that I'm doing. And so I'm wanting to understand New Zealand's context and more than what we do at the moment. So I had the pleasure of being contacted by the Gore Rotary and they wanted to give some research funding. And I said, oh, yes, thank you, but I actually want to come down and I wanted to meet them. So there was a very large population of people living with Parkinson's disease that's in that area. And that is why they had this interest. And in the area, there's also a lot of farmers. And so they were asking me, well, why is, you know, why might that happen?

[00:28:25] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
And the answer is we don't know, but we are aware that exposure to pesticides and insecticides can significantly increase your risk of Parkinson's disease. So a basic message like wear your safety gear can be really important.

[00:28:42] Grant Robertson:
But doing it really practically that way, that's a great way for you to be moving forward. Thank you, Louise. It's fascinating work, and I'm personally really grateful for the work you've done in the broader research system as well, which is really significant. We've got about 30 seconds left for you to deliver the message as we do at the end of each of these shows to the Vice-Chancellor. So here's your chance.

[00:29:04] Louise Parr-Brownlie:
So a message for you, I guess, is a reminder that probably half of our workforce in the university, half of the students are living with a brain condition. And how important it is, and even more, are supporting whānau, right? So how important it can be to have that flexibility around their work environment, so being able to sometimes work at home or being able to leave a little bit early, but you're going to work later another day is so critically important for all of our workforce to be really, really productive.

[00:29:34] Grant Robertson:
A great reminder. Ngā mihi nui ki a koe. Thank you, Louise. It's been a fascinating session. Please do join us again on 30 with the VC where we talk to our staff and researchers about the amazing work that they're doing at Ōtākou Whakaihu Waka. Nō reira. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. Kia ora koutou katoa.