30 with the VC | Professor Peter Dearden

[00:00:00] Grant Robertson
Kia ora, I'm Grant Robertson, the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Otago - Ōtākou Whakaihu Waka. Welcome to 30 with the VC, a series where we investigate the incredible mahi taking place at the university and the people who make it happen. An alternative title for this is Grant Gets Schooled, and today I'm joined by Professor Peter Dearden from the Department of Biochemistry. Welcome, Peter.

[00:00:25] Peter Dearden
Hi there.

[00:00:26] Grant Robertson
Great to have you with us. In this series, we start by getting the people who come along to bring along a prop, something that tells us something about their work at the university and why it matters. So, Peter, he said with some trepidation, what have you brought?

[00:00:42] Peter Dearden
Well, so I brought this small animal here. This is she. Maybe you hold on to her for a second. So she's a black field cricket, which is an invasive species of cricket. And you, if you've lived in the North Island, certainly in the north of the North Island, you will have heard them every night. You'll hear the little chirping of crickets. That's that fellow. She's an Australian invader. She does damage to our pasture.

[00:01:09] Grant Robertson
Kept inside here, for good reason.

[00:01:10] Peter Dearden
And I like cricket, so that's why she has a carrot there. I thought, you know, you need to keep these things happy. But, I mean, crickets are an example of some of the range of insects we have in New Zealand. We have all these amazing species from taonga species, which are so important to our native environments, to things like this, which are pests and cause damage to our primary production. And a lot of my research involves trying to understand insects themselves, how they work, and then how we might either better protect them. So we're looking after, for example, bees, which do pollination, or how to control pests like this.

[00:01:41] Grant Robertson
Amazing. I'm going to give it back to you.

[00:01:43] Peter Dearden
Are you sure? I mean, she's really nice.

[00:01:46] Grant Robertson
Have we given her a name?

[00:01:48] Peter Dearden
No, she came in yesterday. I have a little breeding colony of them, and she's, unfortunately, because it's the middle of winter, I had to order some specially for you. So she's come in with 50 of her closest friends, and they haven't all got names yet.

[00:02:00] Grant Robertson
Oh, very good. Well, thank you for bringing her along. So, to give folks some background, a professor in the Department of Biochemistry, a fellow of the Royal Society Te Apārangi, Director of Genomics Aotearoa, and I'm wearing today my Genomics Aotearoa badge. We'll come back to that in a minute. Just this month, you were awarded the MJD White Medal for an outstanding contribution for an Australasian scientist to genetics research. We're going to talk about wasps in a minute, because that's one of the things that you've most recently been awarded a significant grant for. That's quite a remarkable career. Can you take me back to where it started and how you became a person who was going to be one of, you know, New Zealand, the world's leading geneticists? How does that happen?

[00:02:53] Peter Dearden
Sorry, that's an interesting question. When I went to school, I wasn't allowed to do biology, because biology was for stupid people, and I was regarded as not being stupid. So I wasn't allowed to do it, but it's quite a common thing in New Zealand schools, that biology is regarded as the dumb science. And so when I went to university, I wanted to be a chemist. And then I did chemistry and went, oh my God, I hate this.

[00:03:20] Grant Robertson
No offence to the chemists.

[00:03:21] Peter Dearden
I'm sure they're better now. But I took some zoology papers to fill in, and I loved them, and suddenly when they were talking about fundamental mechanisms that happen in animals, like how nerves work and how they control their reproduction, suddenly I was interested in how things fit together, how genes work, and how they make an organism. And then we had this old lecturer who, he may still be around at Victoria University, a guy named Geoff Rickards,

[00:03:51] Peter Dearden
who set this essay when I was a fourth year student about where animals come from in the fossil records. And you probably don't know this, but animals like crickets and vertebrates and all these things appear quite suddenly in the fossil record in a thing called the Cambrian Explosion. And suddenly I was interested in how you got form, how suddenly you went from this kind of, you know, wormy things to things with form and limbs and how we put limbs in the right place. So I became a developmental biologist, trying to understand how you make an organism, and then an evolutionary developmental biologist, how you change an organism over time, how you move those mechanisms. And then, right, so whenever anyone says to me, what is your science? I'm an evolutionary developmental geneticist. And everyone goes, oh, God, what?

[00:04:37] Grant Robertson
What does that mean, Peter?

[00:04:38] Peter Dearden
But the point is it's about understanding how genes control the shape and form or the behaviour or the structure of an organism, what we call phenotype. So how you go from genotype to phenotype, how that evolves. And then, of course, that's what underpins human behaviour. It underpins the pest behaviours. It underpins, you know, our dairy systems, the grass we grow. So that's why I think genetics is such an important science, because it looks at that link between information and actual outcome.

[00:05:07] Grant Robertson
You wouldn't have always seen yourself as an evolutionary developmental geneticist. You've kind of been adding as you've gone. How's that journey been? As you, I'm always fascinated with somebody like yourself. There's so many pathways you could have gone down, even just within the discipline that you decided to be in. How's that developed over time? What's influenced you to say, yep, I'm going to zero in here?

[00:05:34] Peter Dearden
Yeah, I actually, perhaps that's, it hasn't happened that way. That's what I've always done. Well, that is the thing, yeah, I guess, and as a, so I studied overseas, did my PhD overseas, and worked overseas as a postdoctoral scientist. And I quite deliberately went to do my PhD in a lab which studied development, how embryos work and how you produce form. And then a lab that studied how evolution interacts with that. And then, because I wanted to come back to New Zealand, I went and studied in a lab which uses that kind of information to think about better pest control management. And so I've always, this is the heart, the thing I want to find out, and the thing that in my career I have absolutely failed to find out, because I've been distracted by all the shiny things, is how do we get shape and form, and how does that change? What is the difference between a human and a chimpanzee?

[00:06:30] Peter Dearden
What is the difference between a fruit fly and a moth at the genetic level, and how does that make an organism different?

[00:06:33] Grant Robertson
Yeah, and that's, I think it's good that actually it's kind of what you've always done, that it's just kept building and opportunities come up. I'm going to take us back a bit, because the purpose of this is partly to school me, the non-scientists, but also the people who are watching this. Can we start at, I guess, for me, what is the beginning here of what to talk to a geneticist? What's a genome?

[00:06:57] Peter Dearden
Okay, that's a really good question, and I want to start by saying that one of the joys and problems with biology is that there is no good definition for anything. So when we teach biology in schools, it's all about definition. So we can say, a genome is a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and as you get further on in the discipline, you suddenly go, okay, there is an exception to everything. And so take that as a caveat, that when I say stuff, there will be somebody in the comments saying, well, that's not really what's going.

[00:07:29] Grant Robertson
And we thank you for commenting.

[00:07:30] Peter Dearden
So a genome is basically all of the genetic information that you find in an organism. So in humans, we have, what, 23-odd chromosomes that they are made up of bits of DNA and proteins. That information about how you grow, how you develop, how you behave is encoded in that DNA.

[00:07:52] Peter Dearden
In fact, in each of your cells, there is a two-metre length of DNA. That's how much information is required to make a human. Again, I'm just cheating, but they're all crushed up, every single one of your cells. And that's the genome, all right? So in there is all sorts of really useful information that we would really like to know. Like, I would really like to know why it is that I behave in particular ways, or why you would really like to know. But the problem is that the genomes are written in languages that aren't sensible, they're not logical, they are not the same. And so we don't understand those languages very well. And we don't understand how that genome, how that information turns into shape, form, behaviour, etc.

[00:08:37] Grant Robertson
So we know that. We know that you can start working around the genetics, around the development of any creature. Why have you gone down the paths you've done? Let's pick wasps. So you're now looking, you've got an MBIE grant, and you perhaps want to explain that a little bit to folks that's looking at that. But how come? How do you choose that? Crickets, wasps, whatever.

[00:09:02] Peter Dearden
So part of, so I'm not, like, you know those guys who get insects and they stick pins through them and they, you know, I'm not one of those guys. And I wasn't a bug catchery person as a kid. Insects came along because actually they're really good systems for understanding these things. If I want to study how something changes and evolves or how something, how the genetics of something works to produce form and structure, insects have fast generation times and they have external embryos and things. So there's all kinds of advantages to using them as a system. A part of those advantages is I don't have to work on vertebrates, which I really don't like. I did a bit of work on mice and I really don't like doing that.

[00:09:44] Grant Robertson
You don't want to be there? No, okay, fair.

[00:09:45] Peter Dearden
So they're a really good system for doing that. But that's also the reason why they're a problem. So they reproduce fast. They're very difficult for us to control. We don't actually know huge amounts about them. So our wasp programme is really trying to develop new technologies to control pest insects because wasps are a massive problem in New Zealand. They cause something like $200 million worth of damage to our economy each year. That's a million dollars in car accidents alone.

[00:10:12] Grant Robertson
For wasps.

[00:10:13] Peter Dearden
Wasps coming in through your car window.

[00:10:15] Grant Robertson
Really?

[00:10:15] Peter Dearden
Yep. So there's huge amounts of damage. They damage apiculture because they eat bees. Because of that, they also damage pollination. So our pastures and in places in New Zealand, particularly in northwest Nelson, the biomass of wasps outweighs everything else. There are more the weight of wasps than birds, than spiders, than anything else. So they're extremely problematic and they're predators and they do all this stuff. And nobody, you know, when you were a kid. Well, you know, when you were a kid at lunch, you went to sit outside on one of the nice days you had in Dunedin and you thought, got out your sandwich and a wasp came and said, I'm going to eat you and everyone screams. They're awful things for New Zealand. They have their place in their home environment, which is in Europe. But here, they're really problematic. We don't know much about them and we need tools to control them. And because they're not a pest anywhere else, it's only us.

[00:11:06] Peter Dearden
So that's why we decided to focus on wasps. I remember, actually, as a kid, we used to go tramping in Nelson Lakes National Park. One year, absolutely wonderful. Next year, places full of wasps. And that was kind of one of those events in my life where you suddenly go, actually, is there a way that I could use my skills to try and solve this problem?

[00:11:29] Grant Robertson
A problem that's right there. Yeah. I'll come back a little bit to the impact of the work that you're now doing. But you used the phrase there that they are a predator. And I've read some things before that you've written about can New Zealand be predator-free? Can we find places that are predator-free? How do we get there? What's your view about that kind of concept of predator-free New Zealand? And what should we be thinking about when we're considering whether that should be our goal?

[00:12:00] Peter Dearden
I guess all of this gets tangled up in that there is a predator-free company.

[00:12:08] Grant Robertson
We'll put a small P on it rather than a capital P.

[00:12:09] Peter Dearden
If we go back a little way, one of the things that I've been so privileged to be involved with is the kākāpō breeding programme. So if you don't know kākāpō, they're extremely endangered parrots. They live on a few offshore islands. They dropped to 51 individuals in the 1980s and 90s. Now we're up to 200 and something. And the Department of Conservation, with input from lots of different scientists, have done a fantastic job in producing more and more kākāpō. The problem now isn't how do we produce more kākāpō. It's where are we going to put them? Because they clearly can't live in an environment with cats. They can't live in an environment with rats. We need to find places to put these things. So our problem with a lot of our native species is not internal to the species themselves.

[00:12:54] Peter Dearden
It's external. It's that they have nowhere to live. So that leads you to the point of saying, well, can we solve that problem? And I would have said 10 years ago, this is going to be incredibly difficult. But actually, I think with ambition and funding, which is the critical thing, and input from communities, I think there is a really good chance of us achieving a predator-free environment. I do get a bit annoyed because they always say, oh, well, it's stoats and rats and cats. And I was like, well, wasps are a serious problem as well.

[00:13:25] Grant Robertson
Which is why I raised it, because the most people in their heads, when they're thinking about predator-free, are not thinking about wasps.

[00:13:32] Peter Dearden
But yes, I mean, there is this fantastic paper by some of my colleagues from Auckland and Victoria University, who show that the chance of you surviving as a native insect in northwest Nelson beech forests is zero. And those insects underpin the birds, right? That's what most of the insects do is birds. And then, so this whole food chain, and in fact, it applies to our production systems as well. All our food chains come down at some point to insects. And unless we're actually thinking it a bit more broadly than, oh, yeah, so stoats eat birds, we might also just think, okay, well, if we get rid of the wasps, then there are more insects, then the birds are going to be happier. So I do think, and, you know, we have some remarkable insects and other invertebrates in this country. So, yeah, I think predator-free, I've seen some remarkable things happening in the predator-free space. It costs money, and it takes time, and it takes real community engagement.

[00:14:31] Peter Dearden
But I think we have a possibility, but I think we need to think a bit more broadly.

[00:14:36] Grant Robertson
We've also got, I've seen something you wrote about looking at, say, Rakiura Stewart Island, and thinking, could we actually turn that into something that was a genuine predator-free or on the way to being predator-free environment? How do you feel about that? Is that something you think we should be aiming at?

[00:14:55] Peter Dearden
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. I do think, obviously, there are people who live on Rakiura, and we have to ensure that that community is engaged. But I think that a lot of the discussion has been about the tools that are being used, not actually the ambition to have this as a predator-free environment. So I think that actually that's a really good opportunity. But to be honest, I think that's proof of concept.

[00:15:18] Peter Dearden
Right. Actually, you know, we should be predator-free South Island. We should be predator-free Dunedin Peninsula. We should be predator-free Dunedin. We know how to do this. I mean, not with wasps. We're still trying to work that out. But we know how to do this with rats and stoats and other things. And as you start thinking about how you might sort of advance up the country, producing predator-free areas, your problem starts going away because there's less places for those predators to invade.

[00:15:48] Grant Robertson
It's an extraordinary process. I mean, I lived in Wellington for quite a long time, and the Miramar Peninsula.

[00:15:54] Peter Dearden
It's an amazing project.

[00:15:55] Grant Robertson
It's an incredible story that you could take somewhere like that and achieve the semi-predator-free status that it has. It's amazing.

[00:16:00] Peter Dearden
But it's also the engagement of community, right? People need to be – this can't be pointy heads like myself coming along saying, hey, you've got some wasps, I'll sort it out for you. It's actually got to be people on the ground saying, this is what our problems are, and do you have any solutions for them?

[00:16:21] Grant Robertson
That's a nice segue into the way that you think about the impact of the work that you do. I just wonder if you've taken time to reflect on the fact that the kid who realised he didn't like chemistry hit into biology. You now have this place where you're having an impact, and you've mentioned community engagement as one aspect of that. What else, when you think about that, I hope you feel proud about it, what else do you think makes impactful research?

[00:16:54] Peter Dearden
Yeah, so one of the things that I find really interesting about the way scientists talk about their research is they talk about this thing when they say, well, you know, I do fundamental, underpinning, basic research, and I do some of that too.

[00:17:11] Grant Robertson
You do, yep.

[00:17:12] Peter Dearden
And they also say, and then there's those guys over there who do applied research, and I sort of do some of that too. And over the years, I've come to realise that there is no gap between these things. They are the same thing. What you have to be saying is, what are my impacts? What is it that I'm attempting to achieve? Can, if we're going to achieve this thing, we can't just be doing applied research, and we can't just be doing fundamental research. We need to be doing the research that tells us how things work, and then manipulate that to produce outcomes that have impact. So we, I've worked quite a bit with the beekeeping industry. One of the issues there is that when you've got lots of, you've got virus and mite infestations, which cause drops in reproduction, less bees, it's really problematic. So one way of dealing with that is to try and increase production from queens. Can we get queens to lay more eggs?

[00:18:04] Peter Dearden
Does anyone know how honeybees produce eggs? No

[00:18:06] Grant Robertson
No.

[00:18:07] Peter Dearden
Do now. So we had to do that fundamental piece of research to then be able to say, can we put that into a selection programme so that beekeepers can select for bees that produce more offspring, in the hope that that will help them buffer some of these other impacts. So I think that those impacts are really important. In fact, when I think about most of my research programmes now, I say, what are we trying to achieve first? And then we think, how do we get there? And the how that we get there may be all the way back at really fundamental research, but that's important to think about.

[00:18:39] Grant Robertson
And at the risk of getting a little political, this of course is an issue right now today because the government is looking at wanting to see more of what it calls research impact. And I guess you're drawing out the point that it's one journey and we've got to be supporting researchers all the way through that journey in order to get the big impacts that everyone wants.

[00:19:01] Peter Dearden
The government currently is talking a lot about commercialisation and commercialisation is absolutely one way to have impact in research. But there are lots of other ways. You know, the sort of public good research that we've been doing for a long time relies on the fact that actually, you know, we do a lot of work in pest control. We don't sell pest control products. We deal with it on a broad scale. We're trying to lift the productivity of the dairy industry or the sheep industry, benefiting everyone. And I think that we have to be careful that we don't run down this path where we say, oh, it's all about commercialising. It's all about producing companies that sell a product. When actually the sensible thing for a country like New Zealand is to say, well, how do we use our science expertise and capability to lift everyone? There are absolutely things that have to be commercialised to have impact, but there are other routes.

[00:19:53] Peter Dearden
And as you say, you can't, you know, unfortunately, I mean, actually not unfortunately, fortunately, the international science system demands that as a scientist, you do research that is impactful in your field. You need to publish to get the chops to be allowed to do the work that is impactful. So you can't just let that go.

[00:20:16] Grant Robertson
Yeah.

[00:20:16] Peter Dearden
Because then you end up with scientists who don't have international impact and anyone who looks at their work says, you know, who are they? What are they doing?

[00:20:22] Grant Robertson
So you're right. You've been involved in foundational basic research, impactful research. You're also involved in commercialisation as well. I'm wearing my Genomics Aotearoa badge today. Do you want to talk a little bit about Genomics Aotearoa, about how it came to be and what it's trying to do?

[00:20:39] Peter Dearden
Yeah, so Genomics Aotearoa is actually a funding platform from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. It's a national network of genomics researchers, there's a bunch of institutions from public research organisations and universities, who come together to try and ensure that New Zealand is doing its best with genomic data. So one of the wonderful things about my career is that when I started, we could sequence DNA, a technology which was, in fact, very much developed here in Dunedin. But we couldn't do it on a large scale. And then the Human Genome Project came along and that Human Genome Project enabled us to do it at a bit larger scale. And then after that came this huge revolution in sequencing technologies, which means that we sequenced the genome of this cricket, which is a bigger genome than yours.

[00:21:30] Grant Robertson
Just a cricket update for everyone. Cricket is now eating the carrot. So thank you for bringing the carrot.

[00:21:36] Peter Dearden
She's happy. We've just sequenced a genome for just over $1,000. The first human genome cost $20-something billion, right? So this has led to masses of data being out there. And there's all sorts of ways of using genomics. And so we have genomic information for most of the cows in this country, most of the sheep in this country, some fish, some other things. We're starting to have information about humans. And this data can, as I said, it's really hard to go from that genome sequence, that genome, to what it actually means. And so Genomics Aotearoa is really a role that's putting in the technology that allows us to go from, oh, yeah, you've got a lot of data, to what does that data mean? And can we make decisions based on it? And that may be in a breeding programme, what cattle do we select for for reduced methane emissions? It might be in an environmental sense. Can we use genomics to monitor the environment so that people can understand what they need to do to manage land better?

[00:22:39] Peter Dearden
And certainly in a health context, can we use genomics in precision medicine to get better treatments faster for New Zealanders? So that's where Genomics Aotearoa sits. It does all of those things, but it's a massive network of people.

[00:22:52] Grant Robertson
And that's it. It's a collaborative network.

[00:22:54] Peter Dearden
Yes.

[00:22:54] Grant Robertson
I'm interested in any reflections you've got on what makes for good collaboration, and then how's that communicated out to the business community or to whoever you think the end user of that information might be?

[00:23:09] Peter Dearden
Good collaboration comes from honesty, right? I think it's very important to us that we're very clear and open and transparent about what we do and how we do it and how people can engage with us. And sometimes that means saying to people, no, this is not something that we're going to invest in. But if you say it clearly, then it's a brief moment of, oh, that's not very nice, but then that problem is gone. But we need to do that effectively. And I guess Genomics Aotearoa has always, I've always felt it has to be doing the best science it possibly can do, but it has to focus on New Zealand issues. And so that's how I got involved with the kākāpō breeding programme. In fact, with the kākāpō breeding programme, we have sequenced every individual kākāpō. The whole species has its genome sequenced. That is...

[00:24:05] Grant Robertson
That's extraordinary.

[00:24:06] Peter Dearden
Yeah. There are very few species. Well, I don't think I know of any other species where that's been done.

[00:24:11] Grant Robertson
That's incredible.

[00:24:12] Peter Dearden
But it allows us to build tools based on that. So we've built artificial intelligence-based tools to help interpret those genomes, to provide information to the Department of Conservation so they can intervene when they need to, to provide them advice as to which kākāpō need to breed with which other kākāpō. But all of those tools are transferable. You can put them in any breeding programme as long as you have information. And that's what we're trying to do in human health as well. In fact, in this country, we have better precision medicine for kākāpō than we have for humans.

[00:24:41] Grant Robertson
Than for humans, yeah.

[00:24:44] Peter Dearden
But, you know, we're trying to get these things and say, okay, where is the gap? If we wanted to implement better cancer treatment in New Zealand, where's the gap in diagnosis and delivery that genomics might be able to fill and to do the research work that builds those tools and that technologies? And I think when you go out to industry and say, hey, we can see here is a really complicated field and you are swimming in a sea of data, let's help you take that data, gather it together, draw out the things that are most important so that you can make decisions, then industry is interested in that.

[00:25:16] Grant Robertson
They definitely are. And it's a good example of how somebody can, you know, you're the wasp guy, the cricket guy, but you're actually talking about human health now as well. And I think that translation of this research that's built its way up, collaborating with others, I think it's really important for industry to be able to see, yeah, we can take that and make it relevant to us. And that's not always, that journey hasn't always been clear, I don't think. Peter, we're coming towards the end of our time. I want to, I just want to ask you to reflect a little bit on what you think for the students who are coming through the biochemistry programme that you're working with. What's, you think, the secret for success? I mean, I think it's great that a researcher of your calibre is still in the classroom, still talking to people. But what do you, what would you say now to the students of today that you're seeing about what they should be focusing on, where they should be going? And you're allowed to say it's not my job to do that, but I still want you to answer.

[00:26:16] Peter Dearden
Well, firstly, I love teaching. I think that that's part of being a scientist. And certainly so much of the research work I do has been inspired by teaching in that you go, actually, we don't understand this, right? How am I going to teach this to people if we don't understand? Let's go and find out. I think that, you know, science is an underpinning discipline for civilisation. And I think that when science students come, I think you sort of, they're sort of feeling, I'm doing this for my own interest. And I think the way perhaps we talk about them, and certainly the government talks about them, that you're investing in your future, but actually you're not. You're investing in this country's future. I think that's a really important thing to get across to our students. You know, I would argue that, you know, the ability to be curious, the ability to be able to assimilate new ideas and new tools, and the ability to think about how to apply them in a new way is absolutely crucial to being a scientist, but actually absolutely crucial to working in industry, to working in government, to working in the healthcare system. So that kind of curiosity-driven, and I guess the words, which is a bit hackneyed, but critical thinking is absolutely crucial. You know, and I think, I hope that I can say to the students that actually, sometimes it's the details, sometimes it's the cricket, sometimes it's the kākāpō that gives you the insight that enables you to make a much bigger impact.

[00:27:46] Grant Robertson
Awesome. Well, thank you, Peter. Thank you for the work that you do. You're a genuine leader in taking research out into the community, but then also, as you've just said, bringing it back into the classroom as well. So I just want to say thank you for the work that you do.

[00:28:01] Peter Dearden
That's very kind.

[00:28:02] Grant Robertson
And now you get the chance. In 90 seconds or less, you've got the Vice-Chancellor in front of you. Is there anything you'd like to tell the VC or ask the VC?

[00:28:12] Peter Dearden
So I was thinking, I know, there's lots of internal things that drive me nuts, but I don't think it's worth talking about them because, you know, some of that is just because of the way that universities and experts have become undervalued in this country and around the world. I think that what really worries me is when I see politicians denigrating universities as not being useful or denigrating academics and experts as not providing useful information or providing, you know, information you can ignore. And I just feel like we, you, need to make the argument that universities aren't here to train people for particular jobs. They're not here to address government concerns. They're here to do the public good job of producing generations of people who have information, who know how to deal with it and know how to be curious and think critically. And that it's not about that benefits that person individually. That is what our society absolutely needs. And I think we've forgotten the absolutely important underpinning role of universities to modern society. We think that, oh, they're just a sideshow or a training college. They're not. And that's the message you need to be telling whatever Prime Minister you're sitting with.

[00:29:33] Grant Robertson
Amen to that. Thank you, Peter. Thanks for joining us on 30 with the VC. This is a series where we look at the mahi that's been done in the University of Otago and the incredible people who do it. Please do join us again. Nau reira. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. Kia ora koutou katoa.